Hoy, todos los que amamos este bello Jardín de América, y del mundo- nos duelen las entrañas y el corazón se nos aprieta de rabia y de dolor. Este es un pueblo noble y pacífico, que ama profundamente a su isla.
You are correct, but there are a lot of Puerto Ricans who live in US states. If someone says “Italians must vote for Harris” it’s the same thing. Italians in Italy obviously can’t vote for her, but US Italian citizens can.
Not to sound like an asshole and not calling you out specifically, but I find it incredibly ridiculous and frustrating that Americans are so confused and ignorant about Puerto Rico.
Edit: thanks RapidCreek for proving my point so well.
I wouldn’t find it too ridiculous. After all, most people in the US haven’t traveled outside it’s borders and the concept of other countries is just not something they encounter.
Interesting subject. The US has many agreements with separate countries on travel. But, if you are traveling to another Caribbean island, and go through San Jaun for a connecting flight, you will be asked for your passport there as well as in Miami, or other US end point. Why? Because Puerto Rico has its own passport control, not US. Same is true of Canada, BTW.
All states have their own passport control for international travelers.
I’ve been to Puerto Rico several times, and I’ve never used a passport to go there or come back.
-U.S. citizens do not need a passport to travel between the U.S. and these territories:
-Guam
-Commonwealth of the Northern Mariana Islands
-Puerto Rico
-U.S. Virgin Islands
Puerto Rico is not autonomous. In Puerto Rico v. Sanchez Valle, the US Supreme Court found that sovereignty of Puerto Rico ultimately resides in the United States Congress. The US Congress can pass a law for Puerto Rico and there is nothing anyone in the Puerto Rican government can do about it. US Congress has ultimate control over Puerto Rico (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROMESA as an example). That isn’t autonomous.
“If Congress chose to alter Puerto Rico’s political status, it could do so through statute regardless of whether a plebiscite were held or what sentiment such a vote revealed.” Political Status of Puerto Rico: Brief Background and Recent Developments for Congress (https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44721/7)
It’s a separate state (as in it has its own government), but so do US States. That clearly doesn’t exclude it from being in the US. It is a part of the US though, in that their citizens are US citizens. It is absolutely a part of the US, even though it is not a member-state. Their president is whoever the president of the US is.
(You may recall Trump, after a hurricane, saying something stupid about the president of Puerto Rico needing to do something, which is dumb because he was the president of Puerto Rico.)
A state has nothing to do with being part of the United States. Most states are not members of the United States. A state is a government. That’s all. The United States name comes from the fact that they were individual governments who formed a larger union of governments. Any government is called a state.
No ones calling it a state. You’re calling the island a country it is not a country not any more it is an American territory. Are they taxed without representation? Like Dc? Is dc a country?
All states and territories have their own local government. They still operate under the US federal government. Your stubborn ignorance doesn’t make Puerto Rico another country.
Puerto Ricans are United States citizens, they use United States dollar as a currency, they pay United States taxes, and they have a representative in Congress.
It’s not a state. It’s not a territory. To be so, it would need congressional approval. It is a separate country of US citizens. And not the only one. Sorry, if this reality doesn’t conform with your imagination
Puerto Rico is an unincorporated territory of the United States and Puerto Ricans are U.S. citizens; however, Puerto Rico is not a U.S. state, but a U.S. insular area
I’m not American or weighing in on this, but I don’t think country is a legal term nor mutually exclusive with being a territory. England is a country despite being governed by the UK. Greenland is the same.
A country is a distinct part of the world, such as a state, nation, or other political entity. When referring to a specific polity, the term “country” may refer to a sovereign state, states with limited recognition, constituent country, or a dependent territory.[1][2][3][4] Most sovereign states, but not all countries, are members of the United Nations.[5] There is no universal agreement on the number of “countries” in the world since several states have disputed sovereignty status, limited recognition and a number of non-sovereign entities are commonly considered countries.[6][5]
The definition and usage of the word “country” are flexible and have changed over time. The Economist wrote in 2010 that “any attempt to find a clear definition of a country soon runs into a thicket of exceptions and anomalies.”[7]
Again, I am not making a claim about whether PR is a country specifically, just that being a territory does not disqualify it.
Slightly older data, but almost assuredly worse or unchanged considering the shifts in economic prosperity and demographics post covid:
Eleven percent of survey respondents have never traveled outside of the state where they were born.
Over half of those surveyed (54 percent) say they’ve visited 10 states or fewer.
As many as 13 percent say they have never flown in an airplane.
Forty percent of those questioned said they’ve never left the country.
Over half of respondents have never owned a passport. (For years U.S. citizens did not need one to travel to Mexico, Canada and on many cruises, which may clarify the previous stat.)
The ignorance in this instance, is in-fact, your ignorance, not Rapidcreek’s. You clearly have a misconception about how well-traveled or worldly US citizens are. In-fact, US citizens are shockingly poorly traveled within their own borders.
So rapidcreeks’:
I wouldn’t find it too ridiculous. After all, most people in the US haven’t traveled (…)
shows they know more about the context of this situation than you do, and they are offering a plausible explanation to contain your exacerbation.
And this response:
No, it is ridiculous. Quit excusing the willful ignorance.
Is really just inflammatory and not based in fact. Also you missed their very subtle joke.
Rapidcreek in this comment is 100% correct. The subtle joke (explained), rapidcreek is that theprogressivist needs to take a vacation, as in to travel and broaden their horizons, to resolve their ignorance and become more worldly.
In at least just this comment, rapidcreek is right and theprogressivist is just plain wrong.
Lol, so I’m ignorant for pointing out the ignorance of Americans? Just because they aren’t well traveled doesn’t excuse people from being ignorant of facts, especially those involving their own country and surrounding territories. It’s as sad as Americans not knowing US history, which ironically Puerto Rico is a part of. Nice try, though.
Well ignorance is the state of “not knowing”. So yeah. You were/ are the ignorant one in that exchange. It might make you uncomfortable, but your “not knowing” in that exchange does make you the ignorant one. No amount of downvotes or upvotes changes that.
And to be clear, in your second response, you weren’t identifying the ignorance of Americans, you were blaming them for it. Then, when you could have just engaged with what Rapidcreek said, and instead you became accusatory and inflammatory. Which actually lines up well with the sentiment of the prior statement you made where you blamed Americans for their ignorance. The reality of travel is that its a privilege, and that even those who haven’t traveled desire to (which you would know if you had done something to resolve your ignorance), but that there are structural economic and political barriers for many US citizens to be able to do so. Many Americans want to travel, but they can’t afford to, or because of the structure of their lives, they can’t find the time to.
So I agree with what Rapidcreek said. I think you need a vacation.
Puerto Rico has no electoral votes. But everyone born in Puerto Rico is a US Citizen.
Meaning Puerto Ricans who are currently living stateside (ex: studying at a university and staying enough months of the year to qualify for residency) can vote.
Similarly, a… Californian… who is living in Puerto Rico has no electoral votes. Because USA assigns votes by land.
Every Puerto Rican is a USA citizen who has the right to vote. As long as they’re living in the correct area (ie: inside the 50 fully accepted states).
So a U.S. citizen who (having immediately prior lived for a qualifying period of time in a US State or in DC) currently lives in a foreign country has more rights than one currently living in Puerto Rico. A USian in Canada can vote for the President, but one in Puerto Rico cannot. That’s … ridiculous.
Seems kind of fucked up that an American can move to Europe and still vote in the state they came from, but cannot do the same if they move to PR (a US territory)…
I’m going to jump in and defend this comment because it is technically correct. If you reside in Puerto Rico, you cannot vote. If you were born and raised in California, or Kentucky, or any other state and you move to Puerto Rico, you lose your right to vote. If you were born and raised in Puerto Rico but move to any of the fifty states, you can vote. Yes, it is stupid. All US citizens should have the right to vote, regardless of where they reside.
Many Puerto Ricans who move out of the island tend to keep up with the goings on by streaming radio stations and reading online version of the newspaper like El Nuevo Dia. El Nuevo Dia is literally telling Puerto Ricans and people.of Puerto Rican decent that it is their duty to vote for Harris. This reads more like a mandate than an endorsement.
If a Puerto Rican, an American citizen, moves to South Carolina, they can vote just like any other citizen.
If I, born in the US mainland, moved to PR, would I be eligible to vote for the president via absentee ballot?
Because if not, that’s genuinely fucked. If I can move to a whole ass other country and maintain that right, but lose it if I move to a part of my own country, that makes no sense. Honestly, it’s downright fucking hostile.
If I, born in the US mainland, moved to PR, would I be eligible to vote for the president via absentee ballot?
Not if you declare Puerto Rico as your residence. If you have homes in three states, and split your time equally between them, you can still only be resident of one state. If you move to Puerto Rico permanently, you can still technically declare your residence as North Carolina as long as you maintain an address, drivers license and file taxes there. If so, you can vote absentee in North Carolina from Puerto Rico.
EDIT: There is no difference between “Americans” and Puerto Ricans because they are all Americans. There is a difference between Puerto Rico and a US state. The people aren’t different, the territory is. I hope that clears it up a little for you.
Re: your edit. Absolutely, I hope I didn’t suggest otherwise in my question.
Re: the rest. That makes sense, I suppose. But it still seems genuinely fucked. Almost as if our laws are designed to give the middle finger to the island and it’s residents.
I totally understood you, I am just workshopping a one sentence answer because it comes up a lot. People always say “Puerto Ricans can’t vote” and that is not true. Plus it makes feel like “others” rather than Americans. The correct statement is that “Puerto Ricans can vote, Puerto Rico cannot.”
I think it’s important to clarify the difference between “living in” and “residing”. If you live in Paris, France but your US residence is still listed as Paris, Texas, you can vote. If you live in Paris, France but your US residence is listed as San Juan, Puerto Rico, you cannot vote.
Here is the kicker. If you live in Puerto Rico but you are still listed as residing in California, you can vote via mail. It is moronic.
EDIT: Your place of residence is normally what is on your drivers license, voter registration and tax returns.
I had no idea about this. I have friends who lived in Europe their entire life who can vote in this election - but if you’re born and raised in Texas but move to PR you lose your right to vote?
Puerto Rico has more people living in it than both the Dakotas, Montana, and Wyoming combined. It would have been the 30th biggest state.
An it’s being treated like absolute shit, with Americans in this very thread not understanding that they’re even part of the US.
At last if Trump wins the election they will be able to just leave this sinking shipwreck of a country, and the idiots in charge won’t even know they were ever part of the US.
If I’m born and raised in Texas, then move to Puerto Rico for say five years, and then move on straight to Europe, do I regain my right to vote overseas (though Texas) ? And could be state specific (so maybe Texas wouldn’t allow it, but California would, etc) ?
You don’t lose your right to vote technically.
Remember that votes in the general election are for selecting an elector, who goes to DC and votes on your behalf. PR has 0 electors.
You can move back, or maintain a primary residence in a state, and then you can vote on an elector, and by extension, the presidency.
OK. So, you are a US citizen. So if you are a part of the 51/2 million Puerto Ricans that live in the US - YES you can and do vote in the state you reside. But, on the other hand, if you are part of the 31/2 million on the island - NO, you can not.
Wait, I thought Puerto Rico residents cannot vote in the presidential elections. Even Wikipedia seems to think so.
You are correct, but there are a lot of Puerto Ricans who live in US states. If someone says “Italians must vote for Harris” it’s the same thing. Italians in Italy obviously can’t vote for her, but US Italian citizens can.
Only within Puerto Rico, but they are still US citizens. The Puerto Ricans on the mainland, of which there are more than on the island, can vote.
Not to sound like an asshole and not calling you out specifically, but I find it incredibly ridiculous and frustrating that Americans are so confused and ignorant about Puerto Rico.
Edit: thanks RapidCreek for proving my point so well.
I wouldn’t find it too ridiculous. After all, most people in the US haven’t traveled outside it’s borders and the concept of other countries is just not something they encounter.
The fact that Puerto Rico isn’t even outside US borders is what makes this ridiculous
Yes, in fact it is outside US borders. It’s not a US state. It’s a protectorate, like the US Virgin Islands, and has its own government
All states and Commonwealth in the United States have their own government.
True, but you don’t need a passport to go there. To your average American it’s as much outside the US as Hawaii.
You don’t need a passport because it is inside US borders.
Interesting subject. The US has many agreements with separate countries on travel. But, if you are traveling to another Caribbean island, and go through San Jaun for a connecting flight, you will be asked for your passport there as well as in Miami, or other US end point. Why? Because Puerto Rico has its own passport control, not US. Same is true of Canada, BTW.
Puerto Rico citizens have US passports…
True, and…?
All states have their own passport control for international travelers.
I’ve been to Puerto Rico several times, and I’ve never used a passport to go there or come back.
https://www.usa.gov/visit-territories
That’s true because Puerto Rico has a reciprocal agreement with Puerto Rico, just like Canada.
Puerto Rico is part of the United States. It is not another country.
Most certainly not a state, and has its own government. It’s a separate country.
Puerto Rico had been owned by the United States since the US took it during the Spanish-American War in 1898. It is part of the US. There have been multiple votes asking if they want to become an official state of the US. Other countries don’t get the choice to become US states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States#Incorporated_vs._unincorporated_territories
You’re getting closer, but it’s not a US possession. It’s a protectorite not incorporated into the US and autonomous
Puerto Rico is not autonomous. In Puerto Rico v. Sanchez Valle, the US Supreme Court found that sovereignty of Puerto Rico ultimately resides in the United States Congress. The US Congress can pass a law for Puerto Rico and there is nothing anyone in the Puerto Rican government can do about it. US Congress has ultimate control over Puerto Rico (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PROMESA as an example). That isn’t autonomous.
“If Congress chose to alter Puerto Rico’s political status, it could do so through statute regardless of whether a plebiscite were held or what sentiment such a vote revealed.” Political Status of Puerto Rico: Brief Background and Recent Developments for Congress (https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/R/R44721/7)
It’s a separate state (as in it has its own government), but so do US States. That clearly doesn’t exclude it from being in the US. It is a part of the US though, in that their citizens are US citizens. It is absolutely a part of the US, even though it is not a member-state. Their president is whoever the president of the US is.
(You may recall Trump, after a hurricane, saying something stupid about the president of Puerto Rico needing to do something, which is dumb because he was the president of Puerto Rico.)
If it’s a state we now have 51
A state has nothing to do with being part of the United States. Most states are not members of the United States. A state is a government. That’s all. The United States name comes from the fact that they were individual governments who formed a larger union of governments. Any government is called a state.
So,yes, I understand your intended use of the word. What do you call a state on a defined piece of land?
The Supreme Court of the United States of America would disagree with you.
It’s not a territory unless Congress makes it so. When did that happen? Never.
Foraker Act
Your stubborn ignorance does not make you right.
if I put my finger on the barrel, puerto rico isn’t a territory
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insular_area
With all due respect you don’t know what you’re talking about
Source: am Puerto Rican
Is Puerto Rico a state? Has the US made it 51?
No ones calling it a state. You’re calling the island a country it is not a country not any more it is an American territory. Are they taxed without representation? Like Dc? Is dc a country?
So, not a state, not a territory.
Does Puerto Rico have elections to form a government?
All states and territories have their own local government. They still operate under the US federal government. Your stubborn ignorance doesn’t make Puerto Rico another country.
Puerto Ricans are United States citizens, they use United States dollar as a currency, they pay United States taxes, and they have a representative in Congress.
It’s not a state. It’s not a territory. To be so, it would need congressional approval. It is a separate country of US citizens. And not the only one. Sorry, if this reality doesn’t conform with your imagination
How’s that supposed to work?
Same as it worked in Panama.
Your hallucinations do not comport with reality:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_Puerto_Rico
I’m not American or weighing in on this, but I don’t think country is a legal term nor mutually exclusive with being a territory. England is a country despite being governed by the UK. Greenland is the same.
If we look at the wiki for Country
Again, I am not making a claim about whether PR is a country specifically, just that being a territory does not disqualify it.
Did you read that?
Washington DC is not a state, and has it’s own government… Seperate Country?
Here’s a clue f9r you. What does the DC stand for in Washington DC?
No, it is ridiculous. Quit excusing the willful ignorance.
I think you need a vacation.
I need a vacation for pointing out your ignorance? Great argument you got there, champ.
Its actually not their ignorance… its yours.
Slightly older data, but almost assuredly worse or unchanged considering the shifts in economic prosperity and demographics post covid:
The ignorance in this instance, is in-fact, your ignorance, not Rapidcreek’s. You clearly have a misconception about how well-traveled or worldly US citizens are. In-fact, US citizens are shockingly poorly traveled within their own borders.
So rapidcreeks’:
shows they know more about the context of this situation than you do, and they are offering a plausible explanation to contain your exacerbation.
And this response:
Is really just inflammatory and not based in fact. Also you missed their very subtle joke.
If it was a joke, it went way overboard
Rapidcreek in this comment is 100% correct. The subtle joke (explained), rapidcreek is that theprogressivist needs to take a vacation, as in to travel and broaden their horizons, to resolve their ignorance and become more worldly.
In at least just this comment, rapidcreek is right and theprogressivist is just plain wrong.
Lol, so I’m ignorant for pointing out the ignorance of Americans? Just because they aren’t well traveled doesn’t excuse people from being ignorant of facts, especially those involving their own country and surrounding territories. It’s as sad as Americans not knowing US history, which ironically Puerto Rico is a part of. Nice try, though.
Well ignorance is the state of “not knowing”. So yeah. You were/ are the ignorant one in that exchange. It might make you uncomfortable, but your “not knowing” in that exchange does make you the ignorant one. No amount of downvotes or upvotes changes that.
And to be clear, in your second response, you weren’t identifying the ignorance of Americans, you were blaming them for it. Then, when you could have just engaged with what Rapidcreek said, and instead you became accusatory and inflammatory. Which actually lines up well with the sentiment of the prior statement you made where you blamed Americans for their ignorance. The reality of travel is that its a privilege, and that even those who haven’t traveled desire to (which you would know if you had done something to resolve your ignorance), but that there are structural economic and political barriers for many US citizens to be able to do so. Many Americans want to travel, but they can’t afford to, or because of the structure of their lives, they can’t find the time to.
So I agree with what Rapidcreek said. I think you need a vacation.
Puerto Rico has no electoral votes. But everyone born in Puerto Rico is a US Citizen.
Meaning Puerto Ricans who are currently living stateside (ex: studying at a university and staying enough months of the year to qualify for residency) can vote.
Similarly, a… Californian… who is living in Puerto Rico has no electoral votes. Because USA assigns votes by land.
Every Puerto Rican is a USA citizen who has the right to vote. As long as they’re living in the correct area (ie: inside the 50 fully accepted states).
So a U.S. citizen who (having immediately prior lived for a qualifying period of time in a US State or in DC) currently lives in a foreign country has more rights than one currently living in Puerto Rico. A USian in Canada can vote for the President, but one in Puerto Rico cannot. That’s … ridiculous.
Why do US citizens living abroad get to vote then?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kathleenpeddicord/2024/08/14/how-to-vote-in-the-us-presidential-election-as-an-expat/
https://www.overseasvotefoundation.org/vote-from-abroad-overseas-voting
Seems kind of fucked up that an American can move to Europe and still vote in the state they came from, but cannot do the same if they move to PR (a US territory)…
I revisited the thread and noticed that nobody answered your question. Below is my answer to the expat vs PR resident question.
https://lemmy.ml/comment/14619858
People born in Puerto Rico can vote for president, as long as they are currently living in one of the 50 states.
I’m going to jump in and defend this comment because it is technically correct. If you reside in Puerto Rico, you cannot vote. If you were born and raised in California, or Kentucky, or any other state and you move to Puerto Rico, you lose your right to vote. If you were born and raised in Puerto Rico but move to any of the fifty states, you can vote. Yes, it is stupid. All US citizens should have the right to vote, regardless of where they reside.
Many Puerto Ricans who move out of the island tend to keep up with the goings on by streaming radio stations and reading online version of the newspaper like El Nuevo Dia. El Nuevo Dia is literally telling Puerto Ricans and people.of Puerto Rican decent that it is their duty to vote for Harris. This reads more like a mandate than an endorsement.
Okay, I’m worried about jumping into this one because it seems to have gotten heated. But I’m really curious about something.
I’m a US citizen, born in South Carolina. If I move to England, i can still vote via absentee ballot.
If a Puerto Rican, an American citizen, moves to South Carolina, they can vote just like any other citizen.
If I, born in the US mainland, moved to PR, would I be eligible to vote for the president via absentee ballot?
Because if not, that’s genuinely fucked. If I can move to a whole ass other country and maintain that right, but lose it if I move to a part of my own country, that makes no sense. Honestly, it’s downright fucking hostile.
Not if you declare Puerto Rico as your residence. If you have homes in three states, and split your time equally between them, you can still only be resident of one state. If you move to Puerto Rico permanently, you can still technically declare your residence as North Carolina as long as you maintain an address, drivers license and file taxes there. If so, you can vote absentee in North Carolina from Puerto Rico.
EDIT: There is no difference between “Americans” and Puerto Ricans because they are all Americans. There is a difference between Puerto Rico and a US state. The people aren’t different, the territory is. I hope that clears it up a little for you.
Re: your edit. Absolutely, I hope I didn’t suggest otherwise in my question.
Re: the rest. That makes sense, I suppose. But it still seems genuinely fucked. Almost as if our laws are designed to give the middle finger to the island and it’s residents.
I totally understood you, I am just workshopping a one sentence answer because it comes up a lot. People always say “Puerto Ricans can’t vote” and that is not true. Plus it makes feel like “others” rather than Americans. The correct statement is that “Puerto Ricans can vote, Puerto Rico cannot.”
deleted by creator
If expat yanks living in Paris or Moosejaw can vote by mail, why can’t yanks living in PR?
I think it’s important to clarify the difference between “living in” and “residing”. If you live in Paris, France but your US residence is still listed as Paris, Texas, you can vote. If you live in Paris, France but your US residence is listed as San Juan, Puerto Rico, you cannot vote.
Here is the kicker. If you live in Puerto Rico but you are still listed as residing in California, you can vote via mail. It is moronic.
EDIT: Your place of residence is normally what is on your drivers license, voter registration and tax returns.
The solution to this, of course, is to simply give Puerto Rico statehood.
Red maggots will never let it happen… Especially now
Also this referendum doesn’t really mean anything… Is just for setting up future discussions
this should have been done a long time ago. there’s gonna be a referendum on nov 5 2024 along with the general election: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Puerto_Rican_status_referendum
PR (pop: 3.2M) has more population than Wyoming (pop: 586K), Vermont (pop: 648K), Alaska (pop: 734K), and North Dakota (pop: 789K) combined (2.8M)
Puerto Ricans (at least outside of PR) tend to be less inclined to vote right wing unless another famous little Caribbean island
I had no idea about this. I have friends who lived in Europe their entire life who can vote in this election - but if you’re born and raised in Texas but move to PR you lose your right to vote?
Puerto Rico has more people living in it than both the Dakotas, Montana, and Wyoming combined. It would have been the 30th biggest state.
An it’s being treated like absolute shit, with Americans in this very thread not understanding that they’re even part of the US.
At last if Trump wins the election they will be able to just leave this sinking shipwreck of a country, and the idiots in charge won’t even know they were ever part of the US.
If I’m born and raised in Texas, then move to Puerto Rico for say five years, and then move on straight to Europe, do I regain my right to vote overseas (though Texas) ? And could be state specific (so maybe Texas wouldn’t allow it, but California would, etc) ?
You don’t lose your right to vote technically. Remember that votes in the general election are for selecting an elector, who goes to DC and votes on your behalf. PR has 0 electors.
You can move back, or maintain a primary residence in a state, and then you can vote on an elector, and by extension, the presidency.
Thanks, that makes sense. At least on a technical level. What a mess.
All the more reason (or not, depending on your party affiliation) to ditch the electoral college and go with a ranked-choice popular vote.
OK. So, you are a US citizen. So if you are a part of the 51/2 million Puerto Ricans that live in the US - YES you can and do vote in the state you reside. But, on the other hand, if you are part of the 31/2 million on the island - NO, you can not.
Almost twice as many Puerto Ricans live stateside than actually live in Puerto Rico.
Yup
They can’t, but there are plenty of Puerto Ricans living in states where they can vote.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stateside_Puerto_Ricans