• Hot Saucerman
    link
    fedilink
    English
    3726 months ago

    Socialists don’t hate markets, they hate workers not having any power or democratic choice in how they interact in the market.

    Workers owning the means of production just means the workers are doing the same work but they are in ownership of the factory and the profits. They will still sell the products they produce in a marketplace.

    • @masquenox@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      386 months ago

      They will still sell the products they produce in a marketplace.

      There is no rule that states they have to sell squat in a marketplace. They could, but they also couldn’t. That’s the whole point of the workers owning the means of production - the workers involved makes those deicisions, not a capitalist or bureaucratic parasite class.

    • @hglman@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      English
      286 months ago

      I, a socialist, hate markets. They are simplistic and functional artifacts of the available way to pass information.

    • Asuka
      link
      fedilink
      16 months ago

      So every company remodeled after REI, got it.

    • @Wanderer
      link
      -66 months ago

      How would that even work.

      It’s very very easy to do something like have a capitalist system where business and the rich are taxed. But you aren’t on about that.

      You could divide everything up today. But with change and new business ideas that system will never work. You think the people would want to invest in new automation, new ways of working, new industries. If it means growth and job losses? No never. Just look at the western car industry, or any big government owned industry. People don’t want change, even things like running a factory 24/7 instead of a nice 9-5 is difficult.

      Then Japan’s comes along and does all this new stuff and puts most of the western workforce out of business.

      • @Infynis@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        616 months ago

        Nothing in America stops the workers from owning the factory or the profits.

        Fully stop? No, not technically. But our society makes it as close to impossible as it can be without being illegal

              • BurgerPunk [he/him, comrade/them]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                14
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                Where do they get the business owner who wants to do that? Can it happen? Sure, it has. But thats not going to happen for most bussiness operation in capitalist countries. Can workers get the money to buy out their owners? Sure. But that’s not super likely in most situations either.

          • @gerbilOFdoom@beehaw.org
            link
            fedilink
            66 months ago

            Sure: becoming a member of a corporation costs money. You either have to pay to get it set up or buy a share to get in so those who already paid are made whole.

            Unfortunately, the US as an example, our society is structured such that the majority of people here have zero savings with wages decreasing in value every year due to inflation. A person in this situation cannot produce money to buy-in; squeezing water from a stone situation.

            • Hot Saucerman
              link
              fedilink
              English
              4
              edit-2
              6 months ago

              All people are essentially born with no assets, and if they want to secure wealth, they must sell their labor to achieve it.

              In other words, children of parents who own an outsized number of assets do not have to sell their labor to achieve it, because it is offset by their parents assets. This inherently produces an unequal/unbalanced system where some people simply never have to work this way. This is why extremely in-demand internships at companies in places like New York City are often unpaid, and thus generally end up going to people who already have money, access, and support systems. Because only those kind of people can afford to take on an unpaid internship to move upward in the capitalist system.

              This is also the source of generational poverty, because it can be really hard to escape when generation after generation are born to no assets.

              • @argv_minus_one@beehaw.org
                link
                fedilink
                English
                36 months ago

                All people are essentially born with no assets

                False. The children of rich people are born rich. That’s a major part of the problem. It creates dynasties.

                • DataDecay
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  2
                  edit-2
                  6 months ago

                  This is an area I have said needs to be taxed to hell, there is no good reason we should allow the passing of wealth without heavy penalty. I’m convinced that if we taxed all forms of wealth transfer at something like 80%, we could pretty much get rid of income tax. Income you have earned should be your entitlement, assets passed down to you should be where the taxes cut in.

              • @gerbilOFdoom@beehaw.org
                link
                fedilink
                16 months ago

                Inflation’s been happening since currency was created. We don’t notice day to day because the effects are stretched over a long period.

                Try calculating the value of a 2010 dollar against the current 2023 dollar. You’ll find the cumulative effect of ~5% inflation each year is significant.

                In addition, periods exist throughout American history during which inflation has spiked noticably within a year or two - this is nowhere near the first time.

          • @Sanctus@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            36 months ago

            Look at the current environment in America. Look at the absence of worker co-ops besides like Winco. Why aren’t there more? What factors are at play that is seemingly preventinf the natural formation of worker co-ops if they are allowed? Are children taught they can do that? Do people getting MBAs learn this in their classes? There are a lot of questions to ask here. While we do have some examples, for whatever reason they are not common here. I do think it has something to do with the resources the average citizen has available, the current ecosystems within existing markets, and all around education of the average American citizen.

      • Hot Saucerman
        link
        fedilink
        English
        50
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        Did… did I say they couldn’t? I think this continues to be a misunderstanding of what socialists believe.

        • @galloog1@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          -186 months ago

          So ah… What’s the issue then? You can have what you want under capitalism. Attacking the system is forcing your own on others. This is unironically what makes socialism unpopular in the context of history.

          • @BleatingZombie@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            66 months ago

            They said it in the first comment

            they hate workers not having any power or democratic choice in how they interact in the market

            • @galloog1@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              16 months ago

              The western left doesn’t agree on one form of socialism to align around so it is both impossible to criticize with any specificity and serves as a catch-all in opposition to the current system. It breaks down when they suddenly have to align on specific policies.

              • @hglman@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                English
                56 months ago

                That’s a good thing; socialism is a fledgling idea. It needs discoure and experimentation. The attack that lack of exact details and perfect cohesion is an empty one.

                • @galloog1@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  -16 months ago

                  Wanting to burn down the system without a coherent and specific approach to replace it only hurts people.

      • @CAPSLOCKFTW@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        49
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        Nothing stops them! except shitty wages that are not enough to pay your absurdly high bills for housing, utility and shitty food plus competition which does not treat their eorkers fair and is therefore much more profitable and can easily destroy your worker-friendly cooperative, which they totally will do because CAPITALISM

          • Ho_Chi_Chungus [he/him]
            link
            fedilink
            English
            476 months ago

            Those lazy commies with their limp wristed excuses like: “The reality of living under a capitalist society”. Why don’t they just eat some bootstrap stew like my pa did and die of preventable illness generating labor value for someone else?

              • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                146 months ago

                Massive inefficient redundancies that ended up making rich people money and hurting the poor? Yeah, fuck that.

              • marx_mentat [he/him, comrade/them]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                136 months ago

                Wait…so these are your examples of people who “did something”

                Do you realize that the edge every single one of these companies had over the others is the willingness to do whatever it takes to extract as much value from labor for the least amount of money, right?

                You are just making the case for the complete destruction of capitalism. Only soulless psychopaths are rewarded here. Winning is not beating these people at the same psychotic game that they’re playing.

              • aebletrae [she/her]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                126 months ago

                The problem with notable examples is that they’re pretty much never representative examples.

              • Cynetri (he/any)
                link
                fedilink
                English
                116 months ago

                Tesla is not close to bigger than GM. They only make consumer vehicles and maybe a model of semi truck but I don’t think that’s being produced yet, while GM has been making consumer cars in addition to commercial and military vehicles for decades. They might be valued as more but that doesn’t really say anything in practical terms.

          • You’re asking people with little to no resources to take on people who have all the resources.

            You don’t seem like you understand modern capitalism.

          • @PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.ca
            link
            fedilink
            76 months ago

            Surprise, when there are obstacles standing in the way of your goals, people may mention those obstacles when asked about progress towards their goals. What an absolute flaccid take.

      • UnicodeHamSic [he/him]
        link
        fedilink
        English
        316 months ago

        The system actively discourages that. It was tried in the 70s. Banks wouldn’t work with coops because they were diffrent. Other companies wouldn’t work with them because they didn’t being as high a ROI. They were more efficient and stable, but under capitalism none of that matters.

      • @Cryophilia@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        46 months ago

        Only in the most technical of technical senses. Much like “there’s nothing stopping someone who’s born poor from becoming a millionaire”. Legally? No. Practically? Yes, there’s so freakin many barriers to such a thing happening, it’s almost statistically impossible. It’s so rare that when it happens it makes national headlines.

          • @Cryophilia@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            56 months ago

            Ok now I know you’re a troll. And a liar.

            Poor people who became millionaires exist, but they’re a rounding error. I don’t think you’re one of them, though I bet you tell yourself that. Having daddy pay for your tuition or whatever is just conveniently left out.

            Actually, I bet you’re not even a millionaire.

            Whatever it is, the point is that what you’re claiming is so statistically rare, I don’t believe you. And then you’re also claiming it’s common.

            Ergo, troll.

            I’m done talking with you.

            • @dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
              link
              fedilink
              16 months ago

              As someone in the industry, I can say you actually do. It’s scary how easy it is to buy coffee harvested by literal or effectively slaves.

              • pjhenry1216
                link
                fedilink
                66 months ago

                You clearly know nothing of the coffee industry. Don’t speak on a topic if you literally know nothing. Third wave coffee exists because of the inherent abuse of the workers who actually harvest coffee. That you’re so naive to even think that the person behind the counter is the end of who is part of Starbucks is shockingly sad considering how much you’re trying to fight for something that is dependent on you needing a much better understanding of what you’re talking about.

              • Hot Saucerman
                link
                fedilink
                English
                4
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                You do realize that coffee beans grow in the tropics… right?

                They aren’t growin em in fuckin Seattle.

              • @dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
                link
                fedilink
                46 months ago

                What do you think coffee is? Do you think people with colored hair just magically conjure coffee out of the ether?

          • pjhenry1216
            link
            fedilink
            2
            edit-2
            6 months ago

            but the workers could do it if they wanted

            Yeah, and a third party candidate could be voted into every seat and the presidency, but it’s so stacked against it occurring, it’s effectively impossible.

            The state of the economy today is what’s stopping a vast majority of people from doing so. You can open a coffee shop and survive, but you could never compete against Starbucks. You would not even dent their bottom line. You would need hundreds of millions of dollars to realistically compete. Capitalism has brought us to a point where a majority of folks need to sell their idea to investors, further separating most workers from the value of their work.

            Edit: I’m really tired of the naive and childish defenses most people put up for capitalism. “Nothing is stopping you.” Yeah and “nothing” is stopping a transgender women from becoming our next president by the same definition of “nothing”. Might as well say nothing is stopping you from passing through walls as quantum mechanics says it’s possible.

              • @dannoffs@lemmy.sdf.org
                link
                fedilink
                26 months ago

                Dutch brothers by revenue is essentially a drive through energy drink stand, not a coffee company and Peet’s is owned by a holding company that got rich off of Nazi work camp labor.

              • pjhenry1216
                link
                fedilink
                16 months ago

                You seem to think to compete, you have to grow larger.

                You need to at least meet inflation, if not outpace it. Moreover, you’re not competing if you aren’t actually trying to battle. Competition breeds innovation. If you do not compete and do not get better or try to improve, society would degrade and regress. Come on. Before you respond next time, just think about what the consequence of what you’re saying is before.you actually hit the button. It saves us a lot of time.

          • @Cryophilia@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            16 months ago

            Typically they will want collateral such as your home for a large loan.

            You know the great majority of people don’t have any such collateral, right? Holy privilege, dude

              • @Cryophilia@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                16 months ago

                Own outright? Or have a mortgage?

                Even if, hypothetically, 65% of people owned their homes outright, that’s still over a third of the population who can’t even consider getting a loan like you described.

                And for those that COULD, they’re betting their entire life on it. People with money can afford to take risks. It’s not an even playing field, at all.

    • @lightnsfw@reddthat.com
      link
      fedilink
      -266 months ago

      Do they actually trust their coworkers to run the company without tanking it almost immediatly? Most of my coworkers can barely make it through their own tasks without fucking something up, let alone actually having input on how the business is run.

      • @Infynis@midwest.social
        link
        fedilink
        English
        576 months ago

        Most of my coworkers can barely make it through their own tasks without fucking something up

        This is a problem with the company you work for, not your coworkers. I’m sure if they were paid more, were given more agency, and received better training, they’d be better elployees

        • Hot Saucerman
          link
          fedilink
          English
          43
          edit-2
          6 months ago

          Either that or the reason they purposefully hire meth-addled freaks is because they want desperate people who won’t fight for any of those things.

          Source: Friend who works in a warehouse and has coworkers who are obviously there to get a paycheck to afford their fix and then move on. It’s the company culture. They could choose to hire better people, or mentor the people who could grow, they don’t.

        • @lightnsfw@reddthat.com
          link
          fedilink
          36 months ago

          No, they’re just idiots. Myself and others have had the same training and responsibilities and do fine. It’s not that difficult of a job.

          • hexachrome [they/them]
            link
            fedilink
            English
            356 months ago

            i shall surely reap the rewards of working at the same level as these irredeemably dumb people. then i will prove my point online or something

          • Egon [they/them]
            link
            fedilink
            English
            36 months ago

            Sounds like you’re just an extra special boy. Surely that’s the only explanation to literally all of your coworkers doing their job badly.

            • @lightnsfw@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              16 months ago

              I didn’t say all I said most. It’s really probably not even most just a large enough portion of them that there’s always some issue going on caused by their negligence.

              • Egon [they/them]
                link
                fedilink
                English
                4
                edit-2
                6 months ago

                Sounds like you’re just a mostly special boy then. Surely that’s the only explanation to literally most of your coworkers doing their job badly.

          • potpie
            link
            fedilink
            16 months ago

            It’s not just about treating current employees well. It’s also about offering enough at the hiring stage to attract more good workers. Higher starting pay and a better reputation as a place to work means more people applying, means that Methface Matt can’t compete with TypeA Teresa to get hired in the first place.

            • @lightnsfw@reddthat.com
              link
              fedilink
              16 months ago

              People lie in their interviews all the time. The amount of conversations I’ve had with my boss regarding people he’s hired that turned out be idiots that have started with “I don’t know what happened with that dude, he seemed totally normal in the hiring process”. We’re also restricted in what questions we can ask during interviews because asking people probing questions is apparently not fair according to our HR dept which makes it pretty easy for them to BS their way in. Then we’re stuck with their dumb asses for months before HR lets us fire them.

      • @masquenox@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        526 months ago

        Most of my coworkers can barely make it through their own tasks

        I guess you haven’t met many CEOs, then.

      • Hot Saucerman
        link
        fedilink
        English
        45
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        You must need a better job. I’ve had plenty of workplaces where I could count on everyone around me.

        You know, the hiring manager usually has something to do with the quality of people hired. Maybe you could talk to them instead?

        • @original_ish_name
          link
          56 months ago

          If I made my hiring manager worried more about quality I wouldn’t be hired

        • @Cryophilia@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          26 months ago

          That doesn’t really change the overall point. People are stupid. It’s the single biggest sticking point in democracy, socialism, communism, really anything except dictatorship/technocracy/oligarchy/etc. Any system where you cede power to the masses runs the risk of the masses being utterly stupid.

          I think it’s worth it, because stupid is better than evil, but it’s still a point worth considering.

      • AcidMarxist [he/him, comrade/them]
        link
        fedilink
        English
        38
        edit-2
        6 months ago

        if you dont raise your children to be adults, they won’t act like adults when they grow up. A revolution would mean people learning entirely new skills, like making decisions in the workplace. Most workers have no agency, theyre treated like machines, so I dont expect people raised in that society to know how to run a completely different one from scratch. Revolution is a process, it has to be built. Keep shitting on your coworkers tho, im sure its a productive activity

        • @lightnsfw@reddthat.com
          link
          fedilink
          16 months ago

          They can’t even learn to do the tasks they are expected to do now. Even with frequent coaching. How the fuck can you expect them to learn to make business decisions?

            • CriticalResist8 [he/him]
              link
              fedilink
              English
              16
              edit-2
              6 months ago

              I used to work for a food type company and the way they decided to import and sell stuff locally was if the board of directors (the CEO who inherited the company from daddy + his siblings) liked the item. They hired someone, my coworker, to actually run the market tests and everything and then promptly ignored any suggestion she had to make about the viability of this product on the local market, instead relegating her to a busser that was in charge of ordering the samples they decided they wanted.

              I remember one item nobody liked (they would give us the remaining samples in the break room like some dogs getting the leftovers), but one of the siblings liked it and they got that close to putting it on the market because of it.