Watch the full conversation here: https://youtube.com/live/OVl9FGe8fno?feature=shareChris, Marcelina, and Max join Katie to discuss the historic UAW strike. ...
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
If you and the people you are organizing with (I’m sure you organize irl) decide to engage in entryism. Good for you, hope it goes well. I’ll tell you, historically, it typically doesn’t go great.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval, that’s the most recent ratfuckery the democrats have pulled in a long line of them. You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie, an extremely milquetoast left option but still too disruptive to DNC corporate interest.
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties. they should communicate to political institutions that what we have is not working. But too many Americans have latched onto their dumb sports team red-blue politics game rather than trying to actually understand what political power is materially, theoretically, and historically. If we do engage in entryism (we shouldn’t) it should be organized so as not to get subsumed and crushed. If you are personally compelled to vote for the democrats out of personal interest, I will not stop you. But I am not interested in crumbs dusted from the table.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
Because Dems are less (“LESS” not “NOT”) harmful to minorities and will make my job of trying to end capitalism less risky. I don’t care about Democratic power itself. If you have a better idea to reduce harm I’d like to hear it. I’m pretty sure revolution is going to hurt many vulnerable people.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie
You give up that easy? Good luck trying to revolt against the world!
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties.
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
Ohhh okay, so the dems can actually be heinous and throw trans folks under the bus but it needs to be cold and calculated and maybe pretend to be sad about it. Gotcha. As long as the calculus lines up, right? All your whinging about trans people getting better treatment under dems was complete bullshit, i guess. Do you actually care? are you comfortable and insulated and don’t actually feel the impact of dem Policy? The fact that this act doesn’t disgust you speaks volumes.
‘Capitulating to the right is good actually! Only the leftists are giving up when they refuse to play by the rules set by the house! The dems are allowed, however, to do anything and everything that they want because they aren’t fascists! and we can’t criticize them because that’s the same thing as being fascist!’
When I was young and dumb, I worked on a bunch of political campaigns (gubernatorial, presidential, congressional). The thing that struck me was the number of people who didn’t give a shit about the democratic party because their lives weren’t improved by it at all, and these were not politically illiterate people. They were fully able to point to issues in their communities or in their state, what have you, that would have changed things for the better. Ask me how the political careers of those democrats went and what harm they prevented.
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Ooohh, now math doesn’t give a shit. Earlier you were giving people grief for saying their individual votes didn’t matter. So we can break out the math and realize that our individual votes don’t matter in most cases.
Voting third party is the most bare minimum basic thing people can do. If you aren’t seeing the tangible and meaningful impact that effective political organizing can achieve, then it is on you to rectify that if you truly have ideals which align with anarcho-communism. If you are saying that voting for dems is a worthwhile strategy because they are ineffectual, you can communicate that point without going whole hog defending the dems. I disagree, but it’s a more defensible position. Also, quick aside, why do you think that without meaningful socialist organizing that the leftists would take power after ineffectual dem governance? its just as likely, if not more, that the rightwing with false populism would rise to replace the dems, especially if what little organized left was shown to be in bed with the dems.
Ohhh okay, so the dems can actually be heinous and throw trans folks under the bus but it needs to be cold and calculated and maybe pretend to
be sad about it. Gotcha. As long as the calculus lines up, right?
Nah, I just don’t think any law that purports to be pro-trans necessarily is a good idea. Sometimes laws can be written poorly and not take into consideration how fascists could use it to hurt people. Have you read the law? Newsom’s response? Can you tell describe to me how it helps and how it definitely won’t backfire?
Do you actually care? are you comfortable and insulated and don’t actually feel the impact of dem Policy?
I’m a trans Mexican woman, my family immigrated from Mexico, me and my family have been affected by government policy very much in good ways and bad. What about you?
The fact that this act doesn’t disgust you speaks volumes. ‘Capitulating to the right is good actually! Only the leftists are giving up when they refuse to play by the rules set by the house! The dems are allowed, however, to do anything and everything that they want because they aren’t fascists! and we can’t criticize them because that’s the same thing as being fascist!’
This is too dumb to reply to.
Ooohh, now math doesn’t give a shit. Earlier you were giving people grief for saying their individual votes didn’t matter. So we can break out the math and realize that our individual votes don’t matter in most cases.
Yes, because math matters, individual votes matter that’s why billions are spent to influence individuals by targeting groups. That’s why I’m bothering to argue with you guys, because I see y’all have empathy you’re just misled into thinking Xi and Putin (two of the richest most powerful men the world has ever seen) actually are interested in your well being. There are many MAGA people in your same situation that think Trump is interested in their well being. They’ve been told their enemy is minorities, you’ve been told your enemy is everyone not wanting to destroy America at any cost and not all about sucking Xi dick.
you can communicate that point without going whole hog defending the dems.
I’ve mentioned in my comments repeatedly that I’m an anarcho-communist and encourage voting Democrats because Democrats are conservative and conservatives are less immediately dangerous than fascists and will this will buy us time to try to actually fix things outside of electoral politics. I wouldn’t call this “whole hog endorsement”.
Voting third party is the most bare minimum basic thing people can do.
Ah, so voting is not useless huh? Great. Now just learn more about how two-party systems are traps, and we’re stuck in it. Voting third party doesn’t get you out of the trap, doesn’t break the trap. Unless there is actually MASSIVE support of this third party, the probability of that party winning is negligable, to risking harm to your comrades for that tiny chance your guy will win and the fascists won’t is a dangeros game, and I’m gonna pay the consequences personally, directly, and soon . In our system for people who want to actually end capitalism, you don’t vote FOR people, you vote AGAINST people by throwing your vote the other way. It’s effectively the only mathematical sound argument. Really, what are the chances your third party will win in a FPTP system?
Also, quick aside, why do you think that without meaningful socialist organizing that the leftists would take power after ineffectual dem governance?
Socialist organizing is pro-state. I’ve mentioned repeatedly that I think organizing is pretty much the most important way to change the future, I just don’ t think doing so in a pro-state organization will lead to the best outcome. States don’t give up power, I’m not interested in getting my guys into power, that’s the mistake of history. Nobody deserves power.
Nah, I just don’t think any law that purports to be pro-trans necessarily is a good idea. Sometimes laws can be written poorly and not take into consideration how fascists could use it to hurt people. Have you read the law? Newsom’s response? Can you tell describe to me how it helps and how it definitely won’t backfire?
You’re the newsom/dem supporter; you tell me. How does vetoing a bill that was largely supported by its constituency protect trans kids? Is even this limited bourgeois democracy too much for you? Seems authoritarian to me. Also, how does this track with this statement at the end here.
Socialist organizing is pro-state. I’ve mentioned repeatedly that I think organizing is pretty much the most important way to change the future, I just don’ t think doing so in a pro-state organization will lead to the best outcome. States don’t give up power, I’m not interested in getting my guys into power, that’s the mistake of history. Nobody deserves power.
‘Socialist organizing is pro-state, but organizing is important.’ wtf? How can you even marginally support the dems if this is your ideology? So you don’t think people should organize around socialist concepts? what kind of anarcho-communist are you? because even if you decry all extant orgs as “statist” presumably you are organizing (if you actually are) with leftists… every socialists/communists/anarchists who I have organized with wouldn’t bristle at being called socialist in a casual context. You clearly don’t understand why leftists engage in electoralism, especially when there isn’t a good chance of them winning. Do you think that voting for 3rd parties in the presidential is to get elected? If it happens that’s great (it won’t), but it is primarily to spread your political message, the majority of the work of any well-meaning left org is not electoral, it is on the ground and in the community. I don’t understand how this specific action is pro-state outside of some of the participants not being anarchists. Leftists should support leftist political projects and parties and not the political parties of empire. I don’t understand why this is so fucking hard to understand.
Yes, because math matters, individual votes matter that’s why billions are spent to influence individuals by targeting groups. That’s why I’m bothering to argue with you guys, because I see y’all have empathy you’re just misled into thinking Xi and Putin (two of the richest most powerful men the world has ever seen) actually are interested in your well being. There are many MAGA people in your same situation that think Trump is interested in their well being. They’ve been told their enemy is minorities, you’ve been told your enemy is everyone not wanting to destroy America at any cost and not all about sucking Xi dick.
And there we have it. Like clockwork, the chauvinism that plagues the western left rears its rotting head. Absolutely incapable of looking at things from another perspective, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Ignoring the homophobic/problematic aspects of this tirade, why do you believe that you can completely disregard history? because the american leftist project is going to supercede anything those damn others do? I don’t like Putin, you’d find a significant portion (if not majority of the people on this site) don’t, but I actually pay attention to history and don’t let myself be dragged around by the nose by the US state department. Most of my attention is in my immediate surroundings and community. I am, in fact, not motivated by fucking xi or putin you goddamn weirdo, I’m motivated by the fucking horror show that is the USA. I’m motivated by my friends who were murdered by the state. I’m motivated by the fact that we have fucking full blown nazi acceptance in the west (yes, by the dems). Again, if you want to vote for dems, I don’t fucking care, but don’t expect roses and applause when you get in people’s face about bullshit while the world is crumbling around them.
How can you even marginally support the dems if this is your ideology? So you don’t think people should organize around socialist concepts? what kind of anarcho-communist are you? because even if you decry all extant orgs as “statist” presumably you are organizing (if you actually are) with leftists… every socialists/communists/anarchists who I have organized with wouldn’t bristle at being called socialist in a casual context
Socialism and communism are terms without firm commonly understood meanings. I was using socialism as “on the path to stateless moneyless communism” - it’s a way of using the state in more cooperative way vs an exploitative way, but it’s still state oriented. As an anarchist, I’m not really that interested in promoting groups who want power. But I’m not really “against” people organizing in socialist contexts (I’m actually in the the DSA and RSA), again, I don’t promote state power. I don’t brisle at being called a socialist in a casual context. I would not call our conversation casual.
Also to be clear, as an anarchist, I vote because I’m also realistic and don’t think a successful anarchist revolution is around the corner and I want my miinority and POC comrades to avoid the wrath of fascists while I work on furthering my goals in other ways.
The rest of your comment is full of insults, straw men, and other fallacies and I have to work.
You don’t think that posting on a random forum is casual? Antagonistic sure, but also definitely casual. I use socialist in person all the time in order to get around sectarian bullshit in contexts that are much more formal than an online forum lmao.
You blunder into a room (full of minorities) to proselytize that everyone must vote for dems to support trans people and then dismiss a markedly anti-democratic and anti-trans action, deferring entirely to the singular authority of a man who you claim to be a detractor of. You use your ‘anarchist creds’ to attack the left with uncritical, ahistorical analysis, but won’t criticize the establishment when there are quantifiable actions to criticize. You attack left orgs with basically zero institutional power for being pro-state whilst defending the literal US government. You resort to homophobic attacks to assume I am a useful idiot for foreign governments and perceived boogeyman and that I am no different from a Trump supporter. You don’t even bother mentioning how dem support for literal nazis factors into your support. You don’t respond to others who make compelling arguments against your tired points. Why the hell should I respond to you with anything other than dismissal?
Sorry for the necro reply, I’ve been away from Lemmy mostly.
deferring entirely to the singular authority of a man
Biden is not a dictator, I don’t know why you’d say this.
You blunder into a room (full of minorities) to proselytize that everyone must vote for dems to support trans people
Are you assuming I’m a white man? Are you assuming your minority voice is more important than my minority voice (trans, gay, Mexican (daughter of immigrants), atheist, woman)? Why am I not allow to encourage people to vote for a candidate that has demonstrated support from trans people when the other choice has demonstrated contempt for trans people? Even if you think voting is pointless, you telling me I don’t have the right to try to protect myself in a way that seems useful to me seems like a shitty attitude. What is your goal?
…you use your ‘anarchist creds’ to attack the left with uncritical, ahistorical analysis, but won’t criticize the establishment when there are quantifiable actions to criticize…
You think I’m an anarchist that won’t criticize the establishment? You’ve assumed much in error. Anarchism is a criticism of the establishment, any establishment. Just because I didn’t go into the atrocities of U.S. history in my comment you think I’m gung ho America? lol Get out of your bubble and realize there are more than Marxists and Liberals.
You resort to homophobic attacks
What? lol
and that I am no different from a Trump supporter
I see you as acting like a Trump supporter, yes. You follow rich powerful men that tell you some group is the problem, not them hoarding resources. The only real difference is that Marxists clearly have empathy while the right is based in a lack of empathy.
You don’t respond to others who make compelling arguments against your tired points
I have been away for a bit, but I’ve replied to most of y’all’s tired points.
Why the hell should I respond to you with anything other than dismissal?
Votes are earned.
Said the individual campaigning for votes for dems.
If you and the people you are organizing with (I’m sure you organize irl) decide to engage in entryism. Good for you, hope it goes well. I’ll tell you, historically, it typically doesn’t go great.
Newsom literally just vetoed a bill to protect trans kids in california despite overwhelming democrat representation and approval, that’s the most recent ratfuckery the democrats have pulled in a long line of them. You’re telling people to run for office? Tell me what happened to Bernie, an extremely milquetoast left option but still too disruptive to DNC corporate interest.
I agree with you people should vote, they should vote for third parties. they should communicate to political institutions that what we have is not working. But too many Americans have latched onto their dumb sports team red-blue politics game rather than trying to actually understand what political power is materially, theoretically, and historically. If we do engage in entryism (we shouldn’t) it should be organized so as not to get subsumed and crushed. If you are personally compelled to vote for the democrats out of personal interest, I will not stop you. But I am not interested in crumbs dusted from the table.
Because Dems are less (“LESS” not “NOT”) harmful to minorities and will make my job of trying to end capitalism less risky. I don’t care about Democratic power itself. If you have a better idea to reduce harm I’d like to hear it. I’m pretty sure revolution is going to hurt many vulnerable people.
First off, you’ll notice people calling this a “betrayal”, because they expected more from a Democrat, this and worse would be typical and expected for a Republican. Second of all, I didn’t read the law but read Newsom’s note about it and kinda agree. Newsom is not motivated by trans hate lol.
You give up that easy? Good luck trying to revolt against the world!
Math doesn’t give a shit about opinions, voting third party in our system is a losing proposition. Use it for signalling in safe districts.
Says Lucy as she places the football
Ohhh okay, so the dems can actually be heinous and throw trans folks under the bus but it needs to be cold and calculated and maybe pretend to be sad about it. Gotcha. As long as the calculus lines up, right? All your whinging about trans people getting better treatment under dems was complete bullshit, i guess. Do you actually care? are you comfortable and insulated and don’t actually feel the impact of dem Policy? The fact that this act doesn’t disgust you speaks volumes. ‘Capitulating to the right is good actually! Only the leftists are giving up when they refuse to play by the rules set by the house! The dems are allowed, however, to do anything and everything that they want because they aren’t fascists! and we can’t criticize them because that’s the same thing as being fascist!’
When I was young and dumb, I worked on a bunch of political campaigns (gubernatorial, presidential, congressional). The thing that struck me was the number of people who didn’t give a shit about the democratic party because their lives weren’t improved by it at all, and these were not politically illiterate people. They were fully able to point to issues in their communities or in their state, what have you, that would have changed things for the better. Ask me how the political careers of those democrats went and what harm they prevented.
Ooohh, now math doesn’t give a shit. Earlier you were giving people grief for saying their individual votes didn’t matter. So we can break out the math and realize that our individual votes don’t matter in most cases.
Voting third party is the most bare minimum basic thing people can do. If you aren’t seeing the tangible and meaningful impact that effective political organizing can achieve, then it is on you to rectify that if you truly have ideals which align with anarcho-communism. If you are saying that voting for dems is a worthwhile strategy because they are ineffectual, you can communicate that point without going whole hog defending the dems. I disagree, but it’s a more defensible position. Also, quick aside, why do you think that without meaningful socialist organizing that the leftists would take power after ineffectual dem governance? its just as likely, if not more, that the rightwing with false populism would rise to replace the dems, especially if what little organized left was shown to be in bed with the dems.
Nah, I just don’t think any law that purports to be pro-trans necessarily is a good idea. Sometimes laws can be written poorly and not take into consideration how fascists could use it to hurt people. Have you read the law? Newsom’s response? Can you tell describe to me how it helps and how it definitely won’t backfire?
I want to be clear, I’m not a Newsom apologist, but pointing to one vote and ignoring everything else and how it would compare to a fascist admin is dishonest. https://www.gov.ca.gov/2023/09/23/governor-newsom-signs-legislation-supporting-lgbtq-californians/
I’m a trans Mexican woman, my family immigrated from Mexico, me and my family have been affected by government policy very much in good ways and bad. What about you?
This is too dumb to reply to.
Yes, because math matters, individual votes matter that’s why billions are spent to influence individuals by targeting groups. That’s why I’m bothering to argue with you guys, because I see y’all have empathy you’re just misled into thinking Xi and Putin (two of the richest most powerful men the world has ever seen) actually are interested in your well being. There are many MAGA people in your same situation that think Trump is interested in their well being. They’ve been told their enemy is minorities, you’ve been told your enemy is everyone not wanting to destroy America at any cost and not all about sucking Xi dick.
I’ve mentioned in my comments repeatedly that I’m an anarcho-communist and encourage voting Democrats because Democrats are conservative and conservatives are less immediately dangerous than fascists and will this will buy us time to try to actually fix things outside of electoral politics. I wouldn’t call this “whole hog endorsement”.
Ah, so voting is not useless huh? Great. Now just learn more about how two-party systems are traps, and we’re stuck in it. Voting third party doesn’t get you out of the trap, doesn’t break the trap. Unless there is actually MASSIVE support of this third party, the probability of that party winning is negligable, to risking harm to your comrades for that tiny chance your guy will win and the fascists won’t is a dangeros game, and I’m gonna pay the consequences personally, directly, and soon . In our system for people who want to actually end capitalism, you don’t vote FOR people, you vote AGAINST people by throwing your vote the other way. It’s effectively the only mathematical sound argument. Really, what are the chances your third party will win in a FPTP system?
Socialist organizing is pro-state. I’ve mentioned repeatedly that I think organizing is pretty much the most important way to change the future, I just don’ t think doing so in a pro-state organization will lead to the best outcome. States don’t give up power, I’m not interested in getting my guys into power, that’s the mistake of history. Nobody deserves power.
You’re the newsom/dem supporter; you tell me. How does vetoing a bill that was largely supported by its constituency protect trans kids? Is even this limited bourgeois democracy too much for you? Seems authoritarian to me. Also, how does this track with this statement at the end here.
‘Socialist organizing is pro-state, but organizing is important.’ wtf? How can you even marginally support the dems if this is your ideology? So you don’t think people should organize around socialist concepts? what kind of anarcho-communist are you? because even if you decry all extant orgs as “statist” presumably you are organizing (if you actually are) with leftists… every socialists/communists/anarchists who I have organized with wouldn’t bristle at being called socialist in a casual context. You clearly don’t understand why leftists engage in electoralism, especially when there isn’t a good chance of them winning. Do you think that voting for 3rd parties in the presidential is to get elected? If it happens that’s great (it won’t), but it is primarily to spread your political message, the majority of the work of any well-meaning left org is not electoral, it is on the ground and in the community. I don’t understand how this specific action is pro-state outside of some of the participants not being anarchists. Leftists should support leftist political projects and parties and not the political parties of empire. I don’t understand why this is so fucking hard to understand.
And there we have it. Like clockwork, the chauvinism that plagues the western left rears its rotting head. Absolutely incapable of looking at things from another perspective, especially when it comes to foreign policy. Ignoring the homophobic/problematic aspects of this tirade, why do you believe that you can completely disregard history? because the american leftist project is going to supercede anything those damn others do? I don’t like Putin, you’d find a significant portion (if not majority of the people on this site) don’t, but I actually pay attention to history and don’t let myself be dragged around by the nose by the US state department. Most of my attention is in my immediate surroundings and community. I am, in fact, not motivated by fucking xi or putin you goddamn weirdo, I’m motivated by the fucking horror show that is the USA. I’m motivated by my friends who were murdered by the state. I’m motivated by the fact that we have fucking full blown nazi acceptance in the west (yes, by the dems). Again, if you want to vote for dems, I don’t fucking care, but don’t expect roses and applause when you get in people’s face about bullshit while the world is crumbling around them.
Socialism and communism are terms without firm commonly understood meanings. I was using socialism as “on the path to stateless moneyless communism” - it’s a way of using the state in more cooperative way vs an exploitative way, but it’s still state oriented. As an anarchist, I’m not really that interested in promoting groups who want power. But I’m not really “against” people organizing in socialist contexts (I’m actually in the the DSA and RSA), again, I don’t promote state power. I don’t brisle at being called a socialist in a casual context. I would not call our conversation casual.
Also to be clear, as an anarchist, I vote because I’m also realistic and don’t think a successful anarchist revolution is around the corner and I want my miinority and POC comrades to avoid the wrath of fascists while I work on furthering my goals in other ways.
The rest of your comment is full of insults, straw men, and other fallacies and I have to work.
You don’t think that posting on a random forum is casual? Antagonistic sure, but also definitely casual. I use socialist in person all the time in order to get around sectarian bullshit in contexts that are much more formal than an online forum lmao.
You blunder into a room (full of minorities) to proselytize that everyone must vote for dems to support trans people and then dismiss a markedly anti-democratic and anti-trans action, deferring entirely to the singular authority of a man who you claim to be a detractor of. You use your ‘anarchist creds’ to attack the left with uncritical, ahistorical analysis, but won’t criticize the establishment when there are quantifiable actions to criticize. You attack left orgs with basically zero institutional power for being pro-state whilst defending the literal US government. You resort to homophobic attacks to assume I am a useful idiot for foreign governments and perceived boogeyman and that I am no different from a Trump supporter. You don’t even bother mentioning how dem support for literal nazis factors into your support. You don’t respond to others who make compelling arguments against your tired points. Why the hell should I respond to you with anything other than dismissal?
Sorry for the necro reply, I’ve been away from Lemmy mostly.
Biden is not a dictator, I don’t know why you’d say this.
Are you assuming I’m a white man? Are you assuming your minority voice is more important than my minority voice (trans, gay, Mexican (daughter of immigrants), atheist, woman)? Why am I not allow to encourage people to vote for a candidate that has demonstrated support from trans people when the other choice has demonstrated contempt for trans people? Even if you think voting is pointless, you telling me I don’t have the right to try to protect myself in a way that seems useful to me seems like a shitty attitude. What is your goal?
You think I’m an anarchist that won’t criticize the establishment? You’ve assumed much in error. Anarchism is a criticism of the establishment, any establishment. Just because I didn’t go into the atrocities of U.S. history in my comment you think I’m gung ho America? lol Get out of your bubble and realize there are more than Marxists and Liberals.
What? lol
I see you as acting like a Trump supporter, yes. You follow rich powerful men that tell you some group is the problem, not them hoarding resources. The only real difference is that Marxists clearly have empathy while the right is based in a lack of empathy.
I have been away for a bit, but I’ve replied to most of y’all’s tired points.
I don’t mind if you don’t respond, you do you.