Okay, but that’s the entire reason the “left” in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don’t even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn’t weaken the right. The right can just say “Hey, look, the leftists don’t do shit! Now if you’d kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism…”
Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I’m not saying don’t vote for Biden. I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I’m glad I don’t have to decide whether to vote for everything that’s wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don’t be a dick about it. That “so you’re secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur” shtick isn’t gonna do anything but alienate others further.
I highly doubt that you’re gonna like this, but… communism. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s anarchism. But liberal democracy has failed that task time and time again.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”? At least it doesnt actively lead to fascism. I’d cite the “fascism is capitalism in decline” thing, but since Lenin said that iirc, that’d be like citing the bible to prove the bible.
Second of all, socialists, communists, and anarchists were always on the forefront of fighting fascism. They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military. They were the ones arguing the loudest against Nazis, which is why they were such a threat that the first concentration camp were made for them. In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time. Even reformism won out in places like Chile until the USA (you know, that liberal democracy that’s all the rage now) decided they’d rather see a FASCIST DICTATOR in its place. And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit. And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”?
Is that not the standard you’re applying to liberal democracy?
They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military.
That’s not even close to true. The fascists won the Spanish Civil War due to a mixture of outside help and the Soviets literally backstabbing the socialists and anarchists.
In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time.
Oh, cool. What did they replace it with?
And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit.
Jesus Christ.
And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
Okay, then you are also aware that the USSR was a fascist regime painted red which engaged in a great deal of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, as well as autocratic governance and the destruction of workers’ political, civil, and economic rights.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
Cool. The United Front here is really easy. Vote for the coalition candidate; you know, the one running with the party that has DemSocs and SocDems in it in addition to moderates and neolibs; against the literal fucking fascist.
The standard I’m applying to liberal democracy is the lowest one possible. “Does it actively cause fascism, or support it in its rise?” To which the answer sooner or later becomes “Abso-fucking-lutely.”
The Cuban fascist were replaced with a workers’ state that survived and to some degree prospered in spite of isolation by the USA and their lackeys. There sure are human rights issues, but besides at least some of them stemming from the definition of human rights as anything diverging from bourgeois parlamentary democracy, that’s not enough to completely discredit communism. There are plenty capitalist natuons with abysmal human rights records.
Yes. The USSR sucked ass. In my view, there’s a number of reasons they (and China) shouldn’t even be considered communist (workers had no real control, and they abandoned internationalism in favor of petty nationalism). But they generally seen as part of the communist lore, so whatever. That doesn’t make them fascists.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
Nice shifting of the goal posts there, buddy. We were talking about fascism, not totalitarianism. The latter is just a label you stick on countries you don’t like in order to equate them with fascism.
Vote for the coalition candidate.
What coalition? Many of the Dems (at least from what I notice outside the USA) view anything that’s actually more left than a better healthcare system as more evil than what the Republicans are doing. They happily play along when the Republicans bring up the red spectre (there’s a certain irony to that) of communism.
Is this the same Soviet regime that ran a totalitarian society whose primary difference from fascism was the coat of red paint? The same Soviet regime that itself collapsed into modern Russia?
Uh, here I thought being a fascist society or collapsing into a fascist society might disqualify a country from the title of “Held off fascism indefinitely”, but uh, you do you I guess.
Just because all major communist efforts in recent history ultimately manifest as totalitarian horror shows as a matter of course doesn’t mean it isn’t cooler than those stupid lapel flag pins. I mean. The music is pretty good.
How so? The question regards indefinitely thwarting fascism, which the other commenter accused liberal democracy of being unable to do. I ask which ideology it is they think CAN indefinitely thwart fascism in a way that liberal democracy has failed to.
If ‘indefinitely’ is not required, then liberal democracy has a recipe against fascism which has worked for at least the past 80 years; as long as fascism has been around, and the question becomes self-defeating.
If you think the Stalinist and Maoist regimes were different from fascism in anything other than the coat of red paint, I can’t help you. “The People’s Genocide” is not actually better than “Genocide”, believe it or not.
Okay, but that’s the entire reason the “left” in the US is so pointless. They just have to be less shit. They don’t even have to try too hard to avoid a genocide. They still win. But as Trump showed, that doesn’t weaken the right. The right can just say “Hey, look, the leftists don’t do shit! Now if you’d kindly be distracted from our increasing fascism…” Liberals have no recipe against fascism. At best, they just postpone it by one or two election cycles. Like, I’m not saying don’t vote for Biden. I’m glad I don’t live in the US with your stupid two-party system. I’m glad I don’t have to decide whether to vote for everything that’s wrong in that country rn, or the worse alternative. If you think voting democrat is the right move, good on you. If you want to convince others from that view, great. Just, don’t be a dick about it. That “so you’re secretely a fash, hur di hur di hur” shtick isn’t gonna do anything but alienate others further.
Perhaps you can clear this up by directing me towards the political ideology that has the recipe against fascism?
I highly doubt that you’re gonna like this, but… communism. Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s anarchism. But liberal democracy has failed that task time and time again.
Would you like to inform me when and where communism has indefinitely thwarted the rise of a totalitarian regime like fascism?
First of all, what the fuck kind of standard is that, “indefintely”? At least it doesnt actively lead to fascism. I’d cite the “fascism is capitalism in decline” thing, but since Lenin said that iirc, that’d be like citing the bible to prove the bible.
Second of all, socialists, communists, and anarchists were always on the forefront of fighting fascism. They were the major force in the Spanisch civil war until they lost because fascism is better at the military. They were the ones arguing the loudest against Nazis, which is why they were such a threat that the first concentration camp were made for them. In Cuba, they literally overthrew the fascist dictatorship that was there at the time. Even reformism won out in places like Chile until the USA (you know, that liberal democracy that’s all the rage now) decided they’d rather see a FASCIST DICTATOR in its place. And even though I don’t like the Soviet Union for a variety of reasons, especially once Stalin took over, they were the ones who bore the brunt of the war against the Nazis while the USA were initially only helping for profit. And yes, I am aware that the USSR also played a significant role in letting the Nazis grow to power. Like I said, Stalin (and the system he represented) bad.
To get back to the original topic, since we both evidently disenjoy fascism, we (as in, our respective ideological groups) should maybe join in a united front against it. Not as a centrist “reach across the aisle”, just to work together on this particular issue. And I’d love to do that. But Joe seems stuck in the proud 'murican tradition of panicking at the sight of red flags and siding with fascists.
Is that not the standard you’re applying to liberal democracy?
That’s not even close to true. The fascists won the Spanish Civil War due to a mixture of outside help and the Soviets literally backstabbing the socialists and anarchists.
Oh, cool. What did they replace it with?
Jesus Christ.
Okay, then you are also aware that the USSR was a fascist regime painted red which engaged in a great deal of ethnic cleansing and mass murder, as well as autocratic governance and the destruction of workers’ political, civil, and economic rights.
So you’ve still not offered a single ideology that has actually managed to hold off totalitarianism in a way liberal democracy has not.
Cool. The United Front here is really easy. Vote for the coalition candidate; you know, the one running with the party that has DemSocs and SocDems in it in addition to moderates and neolibs; against the literal fucking fascist.
The standard I’m applying to liberal democracy is the lowest one possible. “Does it actively cause fascism, or support it in its rise?” To which the answer sooner or later becomes “Abso-fucking-lutely.”
The Cuban fascist were replaced with a workers’ state that survived and to some degree prospered in spite of isolation by the USA and their lackeys. There sure are human rights issues, but besides at least some of them stemming from the definition of human rights as anything diverging from bourgeois parlamentary democracy, that’s not enough to completely discredit communism. There are plenty capitalist natuons with abysmal human rights records.
Yes. The USSR sucked ass. In my view, there’s a number of reasons they (and China) shouldn’t even be considered communist (workers had no real control, and they abandoned internationalism in favor of petty nationalism). But they generally seen as part of the communist lore, so whatever. That doesn’t make them fascists.
Nice shifting of the goal posts there, buddy. We were talking about fascism, not totalitarianism. The latter is just a label you stick on countries you don’t like in order to equate them with fascism.
What coalition? Many of the Dems (at least from what I notice outside the USA) view anything that’s actually more left than a better healthcare system as more evil than what the Republicans are doing. They happily play along when the Republicans bring up the red spectre (there’s a certain irony to that) of communism.
76% of the nazis killed in WWII were at the hands of the Soviets.
Is this the same Soviet regime that ran a totalitarian society whose primary difference from fascism was the coat of red paint? The same Soviet regime that itself collapsed into modern Russia?
Christ almighty you just sent the goalposts into orbit.
Uh, here I thought being a fascist society or collapsing into a fascist society might disqualify a country from the title of “Held off fascism indefinitely”, but uh, you do you I guess.
Just because all major communist efforts in recent history ultimately manifest as totalitarian horror shows as a matter of course doesn’t mean it isn’t cooler than those stupid lapel flag pins. I mean. The music is pretty good.
Wow look at those goal posts go!
How so? The question regards indefinitely thwarting fascism, which the other commenter accused liberal democracy of being unable to do. I ask which ideology it is they think CAN indefinitely thwart fascism in a way that liberal democracy has failed to.
From which ideology has a recipe against fascism to which can indefinitely prevent the rise of a totalitarian regime similar to fascism
Don’t pretend that isn’t moving goal posts just because you don’t like communism and so you hold it to a higher standard than liberalism.
If ‘indefinitely’ is not required, then liberal democracy has a recipe against fascism which has worked for at least the past 80 years; as long as fascism has been around, and the question becomes self-defeating.
If you think the Stalinist and Maoist regimes were different from fascism in anything other than the coat of red paint, I can’t help you. “The People’s Genocide” is not actually better than “Genocide”, believe it or not.
Now we’re adding horseshoe theory to goal post moving? You’re such a good debater and totally worth talking to!
Werd.
The only requirement for Evil to win, is for Good people to do nothing.
I guess then it’s a good thing that I’m not advocating for inaction. We just have very different ideas on what to do.
Perfect being the enemy of good, you’ve sided with pointless to remain pure. Such an example of futility and ignorance. But you do you.
… What?
Does anyone saying liberals bad in this thread live in America?