It is. Dax was at one point in male when Kor met him then Dax got a new host that was female, and Kor, without hesitation, accepted her.
It may have been a bit oblique (it was the mid-90s), but this is the essence of accepting trans folk: accepting people for who they are, not your preconceptions of what they are.
I’m sure your memory is correct, but I think it’s missing a major part of the issue. Trans issues weren’t discussed, so you weren’t shown the bigotry that was hidden away. It’s like for black people, the majority didn’t show their bigotry until they were asking for equality. When they were “in their place” you just go about your life like normal and it’s not a point of discussion.
That said, a lot of the anti-trans movement is created artificially to use as a target to distract voters. It’s a fake issue they can purposefully misrepresent so their voters ignore the actual harm they’re doing to them.
I get where you’re coming from, but, anti-trans hate has been around for centuries. Probably longer.
Now, during the 90s, gay/lesbian advocacy was the big deal. And, honestly, the heteros got upsetteros over just that. So, trans issues were… well… unfairly delayed as an issue we all thought (at the time) should come after the mainstream could handle the simple idea of boys kissing in public without being immediately hate-crimed.
I’m on board with thinking that this was the wrong approach. There’s a little bit about this, but, I think we should’ve gone in a lot more fervently and headstrong, rather than pussyfooting around on, begging the bigots to like us, as we did at the time.
Nonetheless, here we are now.
And defining my age?
And I feel, when the dogs begin to smell her… will she smell alone?
There is research out there somewhere that confirms the commenter’s memory. I can’t find it on a whim unfortunately, I’ll post if I can find it. From what I recall from the research (I’m sure I’m butchering it): In the 80s and 90s trans people were a lot more accepted. At some point when certain monied bigots saw the writing on the wall that they were losing the fight of gay and lesbian hate they started a campaign to vilify trans people.
Yes there were always assholes and prejudice, but it’s only in the past 20 years that trans hate became a calling card of demagogues. It really was more accepted in the 90s.
In no way do I want to minimize the awful way trans people are treated, regardless of age. I’m just trying to remember some research I read once.
A lot of people forget what the 90’s was like. You could call someone a f** and people just laughed. It was part of the high school insult compendium.
Anti-gay was strong. People laughed openly at Matthew Shepard getting killed. “Shouldn’t have came onto them! I would beat up a (gay) should they ever come onto me!” I remember kids getting violently beaten in the gym locker room for being meat gazers, and the school just told the victim how this needs to stay quiet or else everyone will know your little son is gay. I went to a fairly large high school in a slightly blue city, and this was just how it was. There was no acceptance of trans because no one dared come out as trans, they saw how gay people were treated.
I am glad the zeitgeist has shifted and people can be themselves. As one of those old millennials, I honestly don’t understand trans, but I want them to be who they are and be happy. Cannot imagine being in a body where your gender feels wrong, it sounds like a daily pain. If you are reading this and are trans, there are cis people who accept you for who you are and would listen to everything you need to say.
”If you are reading this and are trans, there are cis people who accept you for who you are and would listen to everything you need to say."
Well said.
And you’ve highlighted the real reason Trek (and the Trek community) is sacred to many of us. It (and you) help us learn how to say things like this that we’re not finding the words for.
Trans issues weren’t forefront, but they weren’t completely accepted either. It wasn’t a wedge issue, but most people didn’t see trans people in their day to day life(I know invisible isn’t non existent), so it was a far off issue. They felt free to make jokes about them and never got push back.
Now we have a greater cultural movement for blanket tolerance AND an “engagement” based onmaking people angry.
Also, the idea that we live in a Monoculture is junk. You might have lived in a retentively tolerant part of the world, but doesn’t mean the next city or even neighbor over is the same. The internet is also responsible for ripping away the idea of nonoculture.
Two different hosts— still Dax. Same 350+ years of memories and experiences… hardly a different person, just a new incarnation of that person in each host.
except not no, just yes. it is the same person; what you’re referring to is figurative speech like when people say “I’m not the same person anymore” or whatever.
here’s a conversation that wouldn’t happen:
“you’re still with Jen?”
“no”
“oh, when did you break up”
“we didn’t. but she’s older now”
Have you ever had the experience of meeting an old friend after not seeing them for many years? If yes, did they seem the same to you or different?
I have had this experience several times and several times they were a different person than I remembered. We got along easily when we were young but now we have almost nothing in common. I’m sure my own changes as a person had as much to do with it as theirs.
Married couples sometimes get divorced after many years for this reason. “I was so in love with him when we were young but now he’s changed.”
DAX was joined with the Jadzia for six years before she died. Surely a rich life, like that of Torias (1 1/2 years), but worthy and memorable nonetheless.
Ok, so, clearly you’ve never seen or heard of Star Trek before (if I’m wrong, I apologize), or you’d know and understand all of this, so I’ll explain:
Trill society has a subset who can be joined with Trill symbiots. These work/slug-like creatures can live for centuries, even longer. They “join” with the humanoid Trill and become a unified “person”, different and unique from either the host or symbiot which came before the Union.
So, once Dax (the symbiot) seperated from Curzon when he died and joined with Jadzia, was that a “new person”? Well… that’s debatable. Jadzia, the new host, was certainly changed, and Dax, the symbiot, certainly had some ”newness” to contend with. But… Jadzia was still Jadzia… plus Dax. It’s like having a new person, deeply nestled inside of your mind and soul. Does that, indeed, constitute a “new person”? Well… it would certainly demarcate many new and notable differences… but also much that remains the same.
It complicated. It’s not black-and-white, and it (probably) depends on individual experiences rather that a general rule.
On that last statement, in my experience a big chunk of the people that have some issue with lgbtq folks seem to have a lot of issues with the fact that a great many things in life are not a simple black/white binary thing.
As soon as an issue or idea is introduced that requires nuance and subtlety they get all “this is unacceptable and unnatural “. Their minds just seem to have a hard time with the answer to something not being simple and universal.
I ask because the show makes it extremely clear on multiple occasions that while Curzon and Jadzia Dax share memories and a lot of personality traits, they are ultimately distinct people. This distinction becomes even more clear when Ezri Dax is introduced.
This is explicitly mentioned in the episode you are referencing. Jadzia Dax is not bound by the Klingon blood oath Curzon took. While Kor sees her and Curzon as identical, the other two Klingons don’t and are reluctant to let her come. One also makes frequent comments that Jadzia is incapable on account of her being a woman.
As a sidenote, Klingon society is extremely regressive. Part of this is the presence of strong gender roles. I highly doubt they’d be accepting of trans individuals.
Discovery has a non-binary Trill/Symbiote pair. They are non binary because the host identifies as such. They also consider themselves a different person than previous pairs, some of whom are non binary and some of who are cisgendered.
It is. Dax was at one point in male when Kor met him then Dax got a new host that was female, and Kor, without hesitation, accepted her.
It may have been a bit oblique (it was the mid-90s), but this is the essence of accepting trans folk: accepting people for who they are, not your preconceptions of what they are.
deleted by creator
I’m sure your memory is correct, but I think it’s missing a major part of the issue. Trans issues weren’t discussed, so you weren’t shown the bigotry that was hidden away. It’s like for black people, the majority didn’t show their bigotry until they were asking for equality. When they were “in their place” you just go about your life like normal and it’s not a point of discussion.
That said, a lot of the anti-trans movement is created artificially to use as a target to distract voters. It’s a fake issue they can purposefully misrepresent so their voters ignore the actual harm they’re doing to them.
I get where you’re coming from, but, anti-trans hate has been around for centuries. Probably longer.
Now, during the 90s, gay/lesbian advocacy was the big deal. And, honestly, the heteros got upsetteros over just that. So, trans issues were… well… unfairly delayed as an issue we all thought (at the time) should come after the mainstream could handle the simple idea of boys kissing in public without being immediately hate-crimed.
I’m on board with thinking that this was the wrong approach. There’s a little bit about this, but, I think we should’ve gone in a lot more fervently and headstrong, rather than pussyfooting around on, begging the bigots to like us, as we did at the time.
Nonetheless, here we are now.
And defining my age?
And I feel, when the dogs begin to smell her… will she smell alone?
I’m a similarly aged and gendered human.
There is research out there somewhere that confirms the commenter’s memory. I can’t find it on a whim unfortunately, I’ll post if I can find it. From what I recall from the research (I’m sure I’m butchering it): In the 80s and 90s trans people were a lot more accepted. At some point when certain monied bigots saw the writing on the wall that they were losing the fight of gay and lesbian hate they started a campaign to vilify trans people.
Yes there were always assholes and prejudice, but it’s only in the past 20 years that trans hate became a calling card of demagogues. It really was more accepted in the 90s.
In no way do I want to minimize the awful way trans people are treated, regardless of age. I’m just trying to remember some research I read once.
A lot of people forget what the 90’s was like. You could call someone a f** and people just laughed. It was part of the high school insult compendium.
Anti-gay was strong. People laughed openly at Matthew Shepard getting killed. “Shouldn’t have came onto them! I would beat up a (gay) should they ever come onto me!” I remember kids getting violently beaten in the gym locker room for being meat gazers, and the school just told the victim how this needs to stay quiet or else everyone will know your little son is gay. I went to a fairly large high school in a slightly blue city, and this was just how it was. There was no acceptance of trans because no one dared come out as trans, they saw how gay people were treated.
I am glad the zeitgeist has shifted and people can be themselves. As one of those old millennials, I honestly don’t understand trans, but I want them to be who they are and be happy. Cannot imagine being in a body where your gender feels wrong, it sounds like a daily pain. If you are reading this and are trans, there are cis people who accept you for who you are and would listen to everything you need to say.
”If you are reading this and are trans, there are cis people who accept you for who you are and would listen to everything you need to say."
Well said.
And you’ve highlighted the real reason Trek (and the Trek community) is sacred to many of us. It (and you) help us learn how to say things like this that we’re not finding the words for.
Trans issues weren’t forefront, but they weren’t completely accepted either. It wasn’t a wedge issue, but most people didn’t see trans people in their day to day life(I know invisible isn’t non existent), so it was a far off issue. They felt free to make jokes about them and never got push back.
Now we have a greater cultural movement for blanket tolerance AND an “engagement” based onmaking people angry.
Also, the idea that we live in a Monoculture is junk. You might have lived in a retentively tolerant part of the world, but doesn’t mean the next city or even neighbor over is the same. The internet is also responsible for ripping away the idea of nonoculture.
They are two different people though.
Two different hosts— still Dax. Same 350+ years of memories and experiences… hardly a different person, just a new incarnation of that person in each host.
350 years + all the years of Jadzia’s life. It’s like asking if you’re the same person at age 20 vs age 50. Well yes, but also no.
except not no, just yes. it is the same person; what you’re referring to is figurative speech like when people say “I’m not the same person anymore” or whatever.
here’s a conversation that wouldn’t happen:
“you’re still with Jen?”
“no”
“oh, when did you break up”
“we didn’t. but she’s older now”
Have you ever had the experience of meeting an old friend after not seeing them for many years? If yes, did they seem the same to you or different?
I have had this experience several times and several times they were a different person than I remembered. We got along easily when we were young but now we have almost nothing in common. I’m sure my own changes as a person had as much to do with it as theirs.
Married couples sometimes get divorced after many years for this reason. “I was so in love with him when we were young but now he’s changed.”
DAX was joined with the Jadzia for six years before she died. Surely a rich life, like that of Torias (1 1/2 years), but worthy and memorable nonetheless.
Ok, so, clearly you’ve never seen or heard of Star Trek before (if I’m wrong, I apologize), or you’d know and understand all of this, so I’ll explain:
Trill society has a subset who can be joined with Trill symbiots. These work/slug-like creatures can live for centuries, even longer. They “join” with the humanoid Trill and become a unified “person”, different and unique from either the host or symbiot which came before the Union.
So, once Dax (the symbiot) seperated from Curzon when he died and joined with Jadzia, was that a “new person”? Well… that’s debatable. Jadzia, the new host, was certainly changed, and Dax, the symbiot, certainly had some ”newness” to contend with. But… Jadzia was still Jadzia… plus Dax. It’s like having a new person, deeply nestled inside of your mind and soul. Does that, indeed, constitute a “new person”? Well… it would certainly demarcate many new and notable differences… but also much that remains the same.
It complicated. It’s not black-and-white, and it (probably) depends on individual experiences rather that a general rule.
On that last statement, in my experience a big chunk of the people that have some issue with lgbtq folks seem to have a lot of issues with the fact that a great many things in life are not a simple black/white binary thing.
As soon as an issue or idea is introduced that requires nuance and subtlety they get all “this is unacceptable and unnatural “. Their minds just seem to have a hard time with the answer to something not being simple and universal.
Didn’t they make a point of her being a new person when she was on trial for crimes the previous host had allegedly committed?
Did you watch DS9?
I ask because the show makes it extremely clear on multiple occasions that while Curzon and Jadzia Dax share memories and a lot of personality traits, they are ultimately distinct people. This distinction becomes even more clear when Ezri Dax is introduced.
This is explicitly mentioned in the episode you are referencing. Jadzia Dax is not bound by the Klingon blood oath Curzon took. While Kor sees her and Curzon as identical, the other two Klingons don’t and are reluctant to let her come. One also makes frequent comments that Jadzia is incapable on account of her being a woman.
As a sidenote, Klingon society is extremely regressive. Part of this is the presence of strong gender roles. I highly doubt they’d be accepting of trans individuals.
Discovery has a non-binary Trill/Symbiote pair. They are non binary because the host identifies as such. They also consider themselves a different person than previous pairs, some of whom are non binary and some of who are cisgendered.