Ok let me just be direct then so you animal-abusing fuckheads stop playing word games with me like redditors
Leave the fucking animals alone. They are not built to carry your dumb ass around. It causes pain and stress and long-term medical problems. The animal, even if you abuse it into allowing you to do this, cannot give informed consent for it because it cannot be made aware of the long-term risks associated with the act. No person who truly cares about animals would use them as vehicles.
you’ve made an argument based on the word you can’t suddenly be precious and pretend it’s somehow off limits to interrogate that! reddit=actually replying to the argument you’ve made, not the (unstated!) moral assumptions you have behind it
i don’t ride horses, dipshit. you did not address what i said whatsoever, i can appreciate animal cruelty can make someone angry but your reply was disproportionate and unpleasant.
You don’t see why I find it unreasonable and dishonest to compare the use of the term “housebreaking” to refer to training a dog to not shit in the house (beneficial to the dog, detrimental to no one) to the use of the term “breaking” to refer to abusing a horse into allowing you to ride it (detrimental to the horse, beneficial to you)
Not only is the term different, because in housebreaking a dog you are “breaking” the behavior and not the animal, but the act itself is so dissimilar that there is no reason to compare them except as a dishonest way of defending animal abuse
i can appreciate animal cruelty can make someone angry but your reply was disproportionate and unpleasant.
My reply was proportionate to your defense of animal abuse which is far more unpleasant than any insults I could ever come up with to throw at you (all of which would be deserved)
Finally, yes I dispensed with the semantic arguments in my previous reply because it doesn’t fucking matter. The semantics are not the point. I didn’t want to get into the weeds about this. The point is that if you defend or attempt to normalize the abuse of horses then you fucking suck.
Also you call the “moral implications” of my comments “unstated” and honestly I don’t see how you could possibly be commenting in good faith if you think that. Re-read my comments. My top level comment in this thread explicitly calls out horse riders as animal abusers and mocks them for justifying it. If you think I left the moral argument “unstated” and that this conversation has always been about the fucking semantics it’s only because you are in denial and want the conversation to be about semantics.
this comparison is dishonest? it’s the same fucking word. don’t play ‘word games’ unless it’s me pretending slapping a noun on a verb completely removes all context and meaning from it
yes I dispensed with the semantic arguments
if only you actually had
in housebreaking a dog you are “breaking” the behavior and not the animal
defend this. where is it written that when people say ‘housebreak’ for dogs they are very specifically talking about behavior but ‘break’ a horse is totally not related to the behavior of bucking riders and in fact, exclusive to the subjugation of the natural character of the horse. is shitting inside not a natural behavior of dogs?
the act itself is so dissimilar that there is no reason to compare them
ah yeah, people never coerce or use violence on dogs to train them. utterly unheard of
training a dog to not shit in the house (beneficial to the dog, detrimental to no one)
defend this. what benefit does a dog get from not being allowed to shit where it pleases
Shitting inside is not the natural behavior of a dog but there is a difference between holding a poop in until you go outside and carrying a person on your back. If someone isn’t bringing their dog out to poop and forcing them to hold it in to an uncomfortable point it’s comparable to riding horses. I don’t see how the situation benefits the dog here, but it is dog-neutral as long as you aren’t being specifically negligent or abusive. The act of riding the horse is abuse in itself. So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn’t harm the animal and the other harms the animal. I’m sure there are etyomolgical similarities between breaking a horse and housebreaking a pet but housebreaking has turned into a more colloquial term distinct from ‘breaking’ a horse. Words being the same doesn’t really mean much when the context of their use is clearly different. A well seasoned solider isn’t one who’s covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn’t fought many battles.
A well seasoned solider isn’t one who’s covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn’t fought many battles
this is the core of a fantastic joke with a lil set up
So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn’t harm the animal and the other harms the animal
this is where the trouble is. from a human perspective i recognize a distinct similarity, but i am not veterinarian enough to make a judgement on how true that is from a biological standpoint. does the weight of people/cargo on an equine make it so? is pulling a wagon as damaging as putting things on their back? how often are these activities done, does that matter?
i don’t expect you to answer those, i just have a bit of skepticism around this from studying people with very fundamental relationships with horses on the steppe. it’s hard to imagine that horses have had a place below and less care than other animals in societies that prised them so much, y’know?
I don’t see how the situation benefits the dog here,
Seriously? You don’t think that it is detrimental to any animal to live in its own shit? I expected “show me some scientific evidence that it is good for a dog not to have to live in a pile of its own feces” from the dishonest animal abuse supporting dipshits but I didn’t expect it from you
I really thought that anyone arguing in good faith would take for granted that teaching a dog to go outside to poop is beneficial to the dog in the same way that it is beneficial to a child to teach it to poop in the toilet
Dogs (i.e Canis familiaris) don’t exist in nature in the sense ClimateChangeAnxeity means. Dogs exist chase balls solely because humans have bred retrieving instincts into dogs.
Brining it back maybe but even then, dogs work in groups a lot of the time and may have had some instinct to share beforehand. As far as chasing stuff goes, which is what I mentioned, dogs are all about chasing in nature.
Fine maybe fetch was a bad example, although it’s not like wolves are all about picking stuff up with a soft mouth and giving it to others.
Closer example: Sled dogs. Have you ever seen a sled dog? They love pulling sleds. It’s their favorite thing in the world. You put them in their harness and they get antsy they’re so excited.
Over thousands of years, generations of humans used a wolf base to create an organism whose favorite thing to do is pull a sled. Which is pretty fucking cool imo.
Horses are not wild animals. In exactly the same way as dogs and sheep and cows, horses were created by humans. The normal rules about what they would reasonably want are different than wild animals.
Obviously not every horse enjoys being ridden, or any other job a horse does. But you can’t say there’s no reason a horse would enjoy riding with a human. There’s a big reason they might enjoy that, thousands of years of human-guided evolution where “rideability” was the main trait being selected for.
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That’s why you have to “break” them in order to get them to let you climb on, because they just naturally love it so much
we use the same language to describe teaching a dog not to shit inside ‘housebreak’. we don’t typically imbue that with a negative association.
Ok let me just be direct then so you animal-abusing fuckheads stop playing word games with me like redditors
Leave the fucking animals alone. They are not built to carry your dumb ass around. It causes pain and stress and long-term medical problems. The animal, even if you abuse it into allowing you to do this, cannot give informed consent for it because it cannot be made aware of the long-term risks associated with the act. No person who truly cares about animals would use them as vehicles.
you’ve made an argument based on the word you can’t suddenly be precious and pretend it’s somehow off limits to interrogate that! reddit=actually replying to the argument you’ve made, not the (unstated!) moral assumptions you have behind it
i don’t ride horses, dipshit. you did not address what i said whatsoever, i can appreciate animal cruelty can make someone angry but your reply was disproportionate and unpleasant.
You don’t see why I find it unreasonable and dishonest to compare the use of the term “housebreaking” to refer to training a dog to not shit in the house (beneficial to the dog, detrimental to no one) to the use of the term “breaking” to refer to abusing a horse into allowing you to ride it (detrimental to the horse, beneficial to you)
Not only is the term different, because in housebreaking a dog you are “breaking” the behavior and not the animal, but the act itself is so dissimilar that there is no reason to compare them except as a dishonest way of defending animal abuse
My reply was proportionate to your defense of animal abuse which is far more unpleasant than any insults I could ever come up with to throw at you (all of which would be deserved)
Finally, yes I dispensed with the semantic arguments in my previous reply because it doesn’t fucking matter. The semantics are not the point. I didn’t want to get into the weeds about this. The point is that if you defend or attempt to normalize the abuse of horses then you fucking suck.
Also you call the “moral implications” of my comments “unstated” and honestly I don’t see how you could possibly be commenting in good faith if you think that. Re-read my comments. My top level comment in this thread explicitly calls out horse riders as animal abusers and mocks them for justifying it. If you think I left the moral argument “unstated” and that this conversation has always been about the fucking semantics it’s only because you are in denial and want the conversation to be about semantics.
this comparison is dishonest? it’s the same fucking word. don’t play ‘word games’ unless it’s me pretending slapping a noun on a verb completely removes all context and meaning from it
if only you actually had
defend this. where is it written that when people say ‘housebreak’ for dogs they are very specifically talking about behavior but ‘break’ a horse is totally not related to the behavior of bucking riders and in fact, exclusive to the subjugation of the natural character of the horse. is shitting inside not a natural behavior of dogs?
ah yeah, people never coerce or use violence on dogs to train them. utterly unheard of
defend this. what benefit does a dog get from not being allowed to shit where it pleases
Shitting inside is not the natural behavior of a dog but there is a difference between holding a poop in until you go outside and carrying a person on your back. If someone isn’t bringing their dog out to poop and forcing them to hold it in to an uncomfortable point it’s comparable to riding horses. I don’t see how the situation benefits the dog here, but it is dog-neutral as long as you aren’t being specifically negligent or abusive. The act of riding the horse is abuse in itself. So one is teaching a behavior that is for your convenience but doesn’t harm the animal and the other harms the animal. I’m sure there are etyomolgical similarities between breaking a horse and housebreaking a pet but housebreaking has turned into a more colloquial term distinct from ‘breaking’ a horse. Words being the same doesn’t really mean much when the context of their use is clearly different. A well seasoned solider isn’t one who’s covered in cumin and tarragon and a well seasoned meal hadn’t fought many battles.
this is the core of a fantastic joke with a lil set up
this is where the trouble is. from a human perspective i recognize a distinct similarity, but i am not veterinarian enough to make a judgement on how true that is from a biological standpoint. does the weight of people/cargo on an equine make it so? is pulling a wagon as damaging as putting things on their back? how often are these activities done, does that matter?
i don’t expect you to answer those, i just have a bit of skepticism around this from studying people with very fundamental relationships with horses on the steppe. it’s hard to imagine that horses have had a place below and less care than other animals in societies that prised them so much, y’know?
Seriously? You don’t think that it is detrimental to any animal to live in its own shit? I expected “show me some scientific evidence that it is good for a dog not to have to live in a pile of its own feces” from the dishonest animal abuse supporting dipshits but I didn’t expect it from you
I really thought that anyone arguing in good faith would take for granted that teaching a dog to go outside to poop is beneficial to the dog in the same way that it is beneficial to a child to teach it to poop in the toilet
I’m done playing reddit debatebro with you. Fuck off. Stop defending animal abuse.
Why on earth would a horse prefer to carry someone around for no benefit to themselves?
For the same reason dogs like to chase a ball and bring it back to someone. We made them this way, over thousands of years.
Dog chase stuff in nature. It’s a big part of being a dog. Horses don’t carry things on their backs if left alone.
Dogs (i.e Canis familiaris) don’t exist in nature in the sense ClimateChangeAnxeity means. Dogs exist chase balls solely because humans have bred retrieving instincts into dogs.
Brining it back maybe but even then, dogs work in groups a lot of the time and may have had some instinct to share beforehand. As far as chasing stuff goes, which is what I mentioned, dogs are all about chasing in nature.
Fine maybe fetch was a bad example, although it’s not like wolves are all about picking stuff up with a soft mouth and giving it to others.
Closer example: Sled dogs. Have you ever seen a sled dog? They love pulling sleds. It’s their favorite thing in the world. You put them in their harness and they get antsy they’re so excited.
Over thousands of years, generations of humans used a wolf base to create an organism whose favorite thing to do is pull a sled. Which is pretty fucking cool imo.
Horses are not wild animals. In exactly the same way as dogs and sheep and cows, horses were created by humans. The normal rules about what they would reasonably want are different than wild animals.
Obviously not every horse enjoys being ridden, or any other job a horse does. But you can’t say there’s no reason a horse would enjoy riding with a human. There’s a big reason they might enjoy that, thousands of years of human-guided evolution where “rideability” was the main trait being selected for.
I posted already in this thread regarding sled dogs. I have mushed