"Cutting water, cutting electricity, cutting food to a mass of civilian people is against international law," said EU foreign policy chief Josep Borrell in Muscat.
Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.
I doubt that would work. If history is to be of any indication then Palestinians also have no desire to co-exist with Israel. If the sides were reversed Palestine would be doing the exact same things as Israel is doing. Arabs want Israel gone and it’s been clear since the state of Israel was officially founded in 1948.
The UN drew up a two state partition but the muslims boycotted the talks. Then as soon as the plan went into effect, war broke out with the surrounding countries coming to the muslims’ aid.
Both sides were planning on trying to conquer most/any of the territory for themselves. But to state the initial partition plan was drawn up without any input from the inhabitants would be a lie.
The population at that time was around 1/3 - 2/3. After the jewish side won the initial battles a lot of foreign zionists started emigrating into the territory.
If you want to blame anyone for that you can blame the brits for promising to establish a jewish state in Palestine and not really listening to the people living there.
Well yeah, but the Israelis have given exactly 0 consideration to the Palestinians for that fact. Its not the fault of Palestinians no matter which way you cut it, and Britain isn’t in control of Israel. The Israeli state acts on its own behalf.
To my knowledge Israelis were accepting of the UN Palestine Partition plan, the Arab league (alongside Palestinians) completely rejected the idea and threatened to exterminate all jews if the plan is enacted. So the idea that Israelis have given exactly 0 consideration just isn’t factual.
Now the subsequent expansions by Israel and their treatment of Gaza, that I agree is fully on Israel.
The arab league is still not Palestinians. Why is it whenever a group of Palestinians does anything you transplant their actions onto all Palestinians? Are all Americans responsible and complicit in the actions of the republican party?
And Israel and America have both repeatedly compromised negotiations with Palestine. In the mid 90s things were as close as they ever have been to a reasonable future for both Israelis and Palestinians. Netanyahu himself was involved in those negotiations and entirely sabotaged them. Netanyahu, the man who directly controls the IDF is open racist and genocidal towards Palestinians. And the IDF could genocide them, thats a thing they reasonably have the ability to do.
As always the actions and statements of extremist groups within Palestine are taken by western commentators to be indicative of all Palestinian people. None of us are defending extremist groups, so I don’t know what exactly the point of condemning them in this discussion is.
The problem is that Israel is enacting collective punishment onto all Palestinians. The entire world should be universally condemning this vile slaughter of innocent lives. They’re openly calling Palestinians animals and saying they’re going to raze the mass ghettos they’re forced to live in. It is unacceptable. It is disgusting.
I feel like you just refuse to have nuance and the only thing you’re willing to agree with is if I say “Israel bad”. And I don’t have an issue saying that. Modern day Israel is bad. Their actions should be scrutinized. But that’s not at all what I’m talking about. I’m simply pointing to history and saying that Palestine is not some harmless victim and Israel is not some inherently evil entity.
Because Palestine isnt a thing. Palestinians are members of an ethnic group related to a state that hasnt existed in 80 years like theyre not a state. Theyre just people. To say “Palestine is _______” or “Palestine said/did/supported” is wrong, there is no monolithic entity that can be referred to as palestine. There is no state of Palestine. There is the state of Israel, and Palestinians live within it.
It’d be like trying to characterize the entirety of african americans as some kind of unified group that takes united actions and makes united statements. There is no such thing. Palestinians are civilians. They havent done or said anything collectively. There are many Palestinians who have always openly denounced the actions of extremist groups.
Israel is a state on the other hand. A state governed by an openly fascist dictator. Israel can do things, like write laws and take military action. There is a military of Israel, there is a police force of Israel. Palestine has neither of those things. It would, again, be like trying to characterize native americans as some kind of state and be like “Native America isn’t innocent” like that doesnt make any sense.
If you said “Hamas isnt innocent” id agree with you. They are a group that has shared responsibility for actions taken in their name, and a responsibility to denounce atrocities committed by their members. But not Palestinians. They are not Hamas. Hamas is Hamas. Members of Hamas may be Palestinian themselves, but Palestinians are not Hamas.
It is exactly the kind of rhetoric that is being used to justify the “self defense” of Israel against the “human animals” of Palestine.
I doubt Israel will be up for ‘dissolition’. The more achievable goal would be an end to violence and land grabs along an internationally recognized border.
Perhaps that’s true but that simply means Israel is not interested in truly lasting peace. Reconciliation is the only possible long term solution, just the same as in every other colonial project. After decades of settlement the Palestinian state would resemble Swiss cheese. It’s not feasible. A two state solution is only setting things up for further conflict down the road. As difficult as it would be, an egalitarian secular state is the only path forward.
Actually the only hope of truly lasting peace is the dissolution of Israel and the creation of a new state that doesn’t limit citizenship and suffrage along ethnic or religious lines.
I doubt that would work. If history is to be of any indication then Palestinians also have no desire to co-exist with Israel. If the sides were reversed Palestine would be doing the exact same things as Israel is doing. Arabs want Israel gone and it’s been clear since the state of Israel was officially founded in 1948.
Founded is an odd way of writing colonized without any input or consideration by the people who were already living there.
The UN drew up a two state partition but the muslims boycotted the talks. Then as soon as the plan went into effect, war broke out with the surrounding countries coming to the muslims’ aid.
Both sides were planning on trying to conquer most/any of the territory for themselves. But to state the initial partition plan was drawn up without any input from the inhabitants would be a lie.
The population at that time was around 1/3 - 2/3. After the jewish side won the initial battles a lot of foreign zionists started emigrating into the territory.
If you want to blame anyone for that you can blame the brits for promising to establish a jewish state in Palestine and not really listening to the people living there.
Well yeah, but the Israelis have given exactly 0 consideration to the Palestinians for that fact. Its not the fault of Palestinians no matter which way you cut it, and Britain isn’t in control of Israel. The Israeli state acts on its own behalf.
To my knowledge Israelis were accepting of the UN Palestine Partition plan, the Arab league (alongside Palestinians) completely rejected the idea and threatened to exterminate all jews if the plan is enacted. So the idea that Israelis have given exactly 0 consideration just isn’t factual.
Now the subsequent expansions by Israel and their treatment of Gaza, that I agree is fully on Israel.
The arab league is still not Palestinians. Why is it whenever a group of Palestinians does anything you transplant their actions onto all Palestinians? Are all Americans responsible and complicit in the actions of the republican party?
And Israel and America have both repeatedly compromised negotiations with Palestine. In the mid 90s things were as close as they ever have been to a reasonable future for both Israelis and Palestinians. Netanyahu himself was involved in those negotiations and entirely sabotaged them. Netanyahu, the man who directly controls the IDF is open racist and genocidal towards Palestinians. And the IDF could genocide them, thats a thing they reasonably have the ability to do.
As always the actions and statements of extremist groups within Palestine are taken by western commentators to be indicative of all Palestinian people. None of us are defending extremist groups, so I don’t know what exactly the point of condemning them in this discussion is.
The problem is that Israel is enacting collective punishment onto all Palestinians. The entire world should be universally condemning this vile slaughter of innocent lives. They’re openly calling Palestinians animals and saying they’re going to raze the mass ghettos they’re forced to live in. It is unacceptable. It is disgusting.
I feel like you just refuse to have nuance and the only thing you’re willing to agree with is if I say “Israel bad”. And I don’t have an issue saying that. Modern day Israel is bad. Their actions should be scrutinized. But that’s not at all what I’m talking about. I’m simply pointing to history and saying that Palestine is not some harmless victim and Israel is not some inherently evil entity.
Because Palestine isnt a thing. Palestinians are members of an ethnic group related to a state that hasnt existed in 80 years like theyre not a state. Theyre just people. To say “Palestine is _______” or “Palestine said/did/supported” is wrong, there is no monolithic entity that can be referred to as palestine. There is no state of Palestine. There is the state of Israel, and Palestinians live within it.
It’d be like trying to characterize the entirety of african americans as some kind of unified group that takes united actions and makes united statements. There is no such thing. Palestinians are civilians. They havent done or said anything collectively. There are many Palestinians who have always openly denounced the actions of extremist groups.
Israel is a state on the other hand. A state governed by an openly fascist dictator. Israel can do things, like write laws and take military action. There is a military of Israel, there is a police force of Israel. Palestine has neither of those things. It would, again, be like trying to characterize native americans as some kind of state and be like “Native America isn’t innocent” like that doesnt make any sense.
If you said “Hamas isnt innocent” id agree with you. They are a group that has shared responsibility for actions taken in their name, and a responsibility to denounce atrocities committed by their members. But not Palestinians. They are not Hamas. Hamas is Hamas. Members of Hamas may be Palestinian themselves, but Palestinians are not Hamas.
It is exactly the kind of rhetoric that is being used to justify the “self defense” of Israel against the “human animals” of Palestine.
Them kick em both out, bomb Jerusalem, move on.
Just take all the Israelis out of that region and give them Ohio.
I doubt Israel will be up for ‘dissolition’. The more achievable goal would be an end to violence and land grabs along an internationally recognized border.
Perhaps that’s true but that simply means Israel is not interested in truly lasting peace. Reconciliation is the only possible long term solution, just the same as in every other colonial project. After decades of settlement the Palestinian state would resemble Swiss cheese. It’s not feasible. A two state solution is only setting things up for further conflict down the road. As difficult as it would be, an egalitarian secular state is the only path forward.
This. Israel never should have been there in the first place. It’s stolen land, ruled by a tyrannical apartheid regime.