When will be your “this is the last fucking time I’m voting for the ‘lesser of two evils’, then I don’t care after that, let this country burn to the ground”? For me, this is basically it. This is last election I’m going for that " lesser of two evils" bullshit. After that I’m done. It’s just pointless. Let’s hear it.

  • donuts@kbin.social
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    1 year ago

    Uh, never? As an American I can easily recognize that we live in a 2-party political system in which you have 3 real options:

    • Vote for the Democrats
    • Vote for the Republicans
    • Don’t vote / Waste your vote

    American politics is a game of tug-of-war. You can spend as much time as you want lamenting that the rope isn’t exactly where you want it to be right now. But the fact is that one party is pulling the rope to the left and the other party is pulling it to the right. If you want the rope to move right you better join the people on the right, and if you want the rope to move to the left you better join the people on the left. And more to the point, if for whatever reason you don’t want to pull (maybe because it seems futile or maybe because you just don’t like the people on your team) then where can you expect it to move other than away from where you want it to be?

    There is no politician on Earth who perfectly represents my politics, ideals or philosophy. If I wanted someone who perfectly represented exactly what I want I would get politically active and run for office myself. In lieu of that, what else can I hope for but to vote for the people who happen to be pulling in my direction, or at the very least pulling back against the mob of right-wing fascist criminals.

    I don’t think Biden is perfect, but he’s certainly not evil. What’s more, I know exactly what we’re up against when it comes to Trump and the Republicans (who at best are spineless impotent political cowards, and at worst are fascist activists who want to strip people of rights, further rob the working class, deny climate change in the name of profit, destroy what little democracy we have, and weaponize the government against political enemies).

    I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again for all takers, name any politician who you think would be making more progress on important issues (healthcare, climate, education, transportation, lgbtq rights, women’s rights, the economy, etc.) than Biden right now and I’ll give you at least 3 reasons why they wouldn’t. (Hint: the House, the Senate, the courts, state legislatures, inflation, unstable geopolitics, post-pandemic economic change, etc.) Bernie or Warren could be sitting in the Oval Office today, and we still wouldn’t have universal healthcare (because of Congress), we still wouldn’t have been able to wipe out student debt (because of the courts), we still would have to deal with wars and terrorism overseas (because of aggression from countries like Russia and Iran), and we still would be feeling the effects of inflation (because of decades of low interest rates coupled with pandemic supply chain fuckery).

    So yeah, I’m not gonna stop voting for the better candidate of the two, because what the fuck else would any reasonable person do? Pull the rope towards where you want it to go. It’s not hard.

    • donuts@kbin.social
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      1 year ago

      BTW: If you regret that we live within a political reality where we have limited choices and the risks of wasting your vote are high, then you should join the movement to implement more democratic voting systems like Ranked-Choice (aka Instant Runoff) or STAR, as well as reforms to political dark money.

      Even still, many of these changes are more likely to happen at a state/local level before anything can happen federally. But that’s just one more good reason to be interested and involved in regional politics also.

      • PupBiru@kbin.social
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        1 year ago

        also afaik (i’m not american but yknow; can’t escape the intricacies of US politics) changes at the state/local level can often effect federal elections directly… aren’t there some places that do ranked choice voting federally?

    • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
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      I don’t think Biden is perfect, but he’s certainly not evil.

      Your man is a genocider. He’s automatically a no-go; try again, settler.

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        I think you’re confusing Biden for Hamas or Netanyahu, both of which have advocated for genocide of the other.

        Biden’s stance on Israel has been no different than Bernie’s. And that’s probably because the situation in the Levant is more nuanced than you understand.

        • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
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          And that’s probably because the situation in the Levant is more nuanced than you understand.

          How I know you’re a settler unfit for dialogue on this topic. It’s not ‘nuanced’; it’s been a genocide since 1948-- and the only people with an investment in portraying it any other way are colonizers. Biden has sent the colonizers material aid, has sent them money and care packages, hasn’t disavowed them, and has made no real inroads to a ceasefire. He is complicit. So are you for trying to cape for it.

          • blightbow@kbin.social
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            Realistically, the US Government is going to continue supporting Israel no matter what happens until the US has meaningful voting reform. Israel is an entrenched interest due to the amount of money changing hands in Washington. (defense contracts, etc.) This is not helped by the social stigma of the average American not differentiating between Israel as a political entity and Jewish people as a demographic. It’s one of those “broken by design” social constructs.

            The logical fallacy that I largely see in play is the assumption that the Republicans would have handled this any differently. While I agree that Biden’s stance is noteworthy, as a reminder that the parties are more alike than they are different on certain topics, it doesn’t change the landscape of the two leading presidential candidates. One of them is in bed with Putin and appears to have a vested interest in entrenching himself as a leader who can never lose an election. (i.e. an aspiring president for life) The other candidate is still flawed, but doesn’t represent an existential threat to the political institution itself.

            I’d much rather have an option other than Trump or Biden, but until more states enact voting reform at a local level we’re stuck with a choice of which decrepit old man is least likely to be disruptive to the entire system of government. The Republican party needs to continue its losing streak until it decides the populist authoritarian movement is a failed strategy.

            • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
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              “buh buh buh you gotta pick one genocidal bastard settler or the other you can’t just abstain” trick watch me. If the maintenance of any state, the one in which I live, or an ally of it mandates that I support a genocidal settler bastard, then I believe that state deserves to die. I don’t believe in “maintaining the losing streak”-- in fact, I’m convinced it’s a matter of one hand washing the other. The GOP deadlocks so the DNC can shrug, go “eto, bleh; guess we can’t change anything” and the can gets kicked down the road for another four years. Fuck outta here.

              • blightbow@kbin.social
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                “buh buh buh the government deserves to die and everyone living in the country must suffer because my feelings are hurt”

                Yeah, I know you have a lot more to say than that, but the caustic and reductionist debating angle cuts in both directions. A very merry fuck you as well, sir.

                • Amerikan Pharaoh@lemmygrad.ml
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                  If you want my support, maybe don’t support genocidal settler-colonials. You don’t get to reframe the grievance when you and yours have always been the ones in wrong. It’s especially funny to me that you argue your point in support of somehow cajoling me to return to propping up the settler-colonial empire, when from my perspective, the death of the settler-colonial empire is likely the only way the rest of the people of this earth get to survive the impending climate disaster we continue to court.

                  tl;dr I am most emphatically not on your side, and never will be, regardless of whether or not I get to escape this hellscape before what has been sewn gets reaped.

    • KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
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      What if one person pulls to the right and the other actively gives out more and more rope, telling bystanders he’s trying to “work with the other side to find a common middle ground”?

      • donuts@kbin.social
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        If you don’t pull you’re actively giving up more rope than anyone. That’s exactly the point.

        • KISSmyOS@lemmy.world
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          IMO there’s no one to vote for in Presidential elections who pulls the rope to the left.
          There’s one guy pulling it to the right and another one who wants to use the rope to strangle the referee.

    • Moobythegoldensock
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      Voting a third party is not throwing your vote away. It’s actually often the best way to make your vote matter.

      Third parties in the US tend to run on smaller platforms pushing their key issues. Typically, these issues attract voters on one side of the spectrum more than the others: in other words, some third parties attract liberal voters while others attract conservative voters. This means that they compete with one of the major parties more strongly than the other for votes.

      Votes for a major party typically do not have a huge effect on the presidential race unless you’re in a swing state. For example, the last time my state voted Republican was 35 years ago, and since then a Democrat has one by more than 10 percentage points. A million Biden voters could have switched their votes to a third party last election and he would have still won my state.

      But a million votes for a third party would have been noticed by the Democrats, especially if similar numbers were posted across the US. The Democrats would have had to figure out why they were losing votes, and amend their platform in the future to win those lost voters back.

      For example, major work reforms in the early 20th Century (including ending child labor, the 8 hour workday, and the 40 hour workweek) and the focus on the federal budget in the last 30 years have both been due to third parties pushing their pet issues into prominence and forcing the major parties into taking stances on them. A vote for a third party is a warning sign to the major parties that they need to amend their platforms in the future to avoid losing more votes, and that pushes change way faster than blindly voting a single party’s status quo.

      • donuts@kbin.social
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        Voting a third party is not throwing your vote away. It’s actually often the best way to make your vote matter.

        I strongly disagree with this.

        Elections are simply a case of math. If you abstain from voting, write in some random name, or otherwise vote for a candidate who is statistically incapable of winning, then there are only still only two outcomes for your vote:

        • In the best case scenario, like you’re describing, your vote has no effect on the outcome and your 2nd place candidate happens to win anyway.
        • In the worst case scenario, however, vote splitting leads to the well-documented phenomenon known as the spoiler effect. In which case the 3rd most popular candidate, who may not represent anything close to the will of the democratic plurality, will win.

        Personally I always plan around the worst case scenario when making important decisions, and so I don’t believe in the concept of the “protest vote”. Especially since so little concrete information can be derived from “reading the tea leaves” of 3rd party votes. (A big part of your premise revolves around the idea that someone out there will somehow get whatever message you’re trying to send by voting for a 3rd party candidate. And that’s obviously a very indirect and abstract form of protest even in the best case scenario. )

        Also I think it’s a strech to attribute easily 20th century work reforms to 3rd parties as they exist today considering two points: (1) there was a radical shift in political power, generally towards progressivism, at that time and (2) it can be argued that many of these reforms could be attributed more to labor unions in general than any one political party.

        Vote how you want, or not at all, but we can’t escape math in the end. Statistically speaking, a protest vote is at best a benign waste of a vote and at worst the cause of undemocratic election outcomes via the spoiler effect. So I’ll continue to recommend against it, and recommend for more democratic voting systems that are less prone to manipulation and spoilage.

        • Moobythegoldensock
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          The simple math is that a +/- 500,000 votes for Joe Biden in 2020, who got 81,283,501 total, would have barely noticeable. However, +/- 500,000 votes for Jo Jorgenson, who got 1,865,535, or Howie Hawkins, who got 407,068, would have been much more noteworthy.

          Your vote simply has a bigger impact when you’re voting for a smaller candidate.

          And yes, third parties do pressure major parties to alter their platforms, and this is well documented. The clearest example is Ross Perot getting 19% of the vote in 1992 and pushing his pet issue (the federal budget) into every election since then, still persisting today over 30 years later.

  • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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    I really feel sorry for people in the USA.

    The worst thing that happened to your country since WW2 was fighting and winning the cold war. The outright rejection of anything even slightly left of centre as communism!!! has destroyed your democracy.

    Add in non compulsory voting and I have no idea how you change it.

    • southsamurai@sh.itjust.works
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      Being real, it wasn’t the cold war that fucked us. Jim Crow fucked us. Hundreds of years of slavery and racism ruined us. Everything post cold war you’re thinking of goes back to the divide that wants to keep black people down. The side that wants that also wants to keep the gays and women in their place too, but they want the blacks back in their fucking cotton fields first.

      When the racists had a setback during the civil rights era, they hid. Everyone else thought they would die off and that was that. But then the southern strategy was enacted, and the fuckers started undoing things slow enough that it didn’t look as bad as it was. Between the racists hiding, and the oligarchs buying anyone they could off, we got to where we are now. In danger of civil war, and with no will on one side to fight it.

    • penquinOP
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      This is exactly what fucked us. You breathe next to some idiots and you’re a “communist”. What’s sad is that they don’t even know how to fucking define “communism” or whatever they call you. You ask for fair wages for workers? You’re a communist/socialist. You ask for free/affordable healthcare college? Fuck you you fucking communist. And so on. They just throw it around.

  • apotheotic (she/her)@beehaw.org
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    Never. Just vote. Be a grain of sand on the scales that keeps things from going to absolute shit. It costs you almost nothing, just a tiny amount of time.

  • Call me Lenny/Leni
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    I vote third party every time. I don’t care if they’re more likely to lose, the whole point of a democracy is that we vote honestly and that every voice actually serves as a voice which goes against the herd mentality. So I’ve never voted for the “lesser of two evils”, I’ve been voting for actual good people every time because they friggin’ earned it, not the people who have leveraged into victory based on the fact they have victory in the first place.

    • HatchetHaro@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      This would be perfectly fine with ranked choice voting.

      Unfortunately, the US doesn’t have that so that’s the same as an empty vote. You get to take the “moral high ground” while still actively voting to let the country go to the dumps. Great job.

      • Call me Lenny/Leni
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        How is it voting to let the country go to the dumps when in the same logic it’s supposedly throwing said vote away? It’s neither; I didn’t vote for the country to go to the dumps, I voted for the third party candidate, in contrast to people who voted for one of the two main candidates based on peer pressure and more literally voted for the country to go to the dumps. That, I argue, is wasting your vote, because at that point it’s not even your own vote. The point of voting is that all votes are holons of the result, not drops in a nebulous mass.

        • PupBiru@kbin.social
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          Throughout history, it has been the inaction of those who could have acted; the indifference of those who should have known better; the silence of the voice of justice when it mattered most; that has made it possible for evil to triumph.

          … your vote has power… inaction allows, or using your vote in a way that will never change an outcome is complicity

          • Call me Lenny/Leni
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            I mean the quote is kind of the driving aspect of my point. The quote is a commonly quoted WWII quote, it mentions we should speak up and act when necessary. I consider voting third party to be this, or if it isn’t, it’s still better than voting for someone based on their victory chances because that makes us fall into another WWII cliché, the one where we’re just “following orders” (and because it’s more of an effort than not showing up to the polls, it’s better than not trying).

            • PupBiru@kbin.social
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              i’m not talking about doing nothing, but point your effort where it can make change… voting 3rd party is a hopelessly ineffective way of making change… it’s a dream, and that’s it. it makes you feel good, and that’s it, but it’ll never EVER change anything… that is just the mathematics and sociology of how the voting system works

              work towards changing from first past the post and removing the electoral college (there are effects to do both of these things that ARE making progress! some of them are even close!)

              only THEN can you vote 3rd party and not have it a complete waste

              but in the meantime, i beg you, vote for the party that isn’t actively campaigning to persecute minorities, who gave you at least a half way form of socialised healthcare, who’s at least trying with green energy, whose policies and positions are at least internally consistent for the most part

              and most importantly, vote for the party that isn’t trying to make it harder to vote for anyone else, because you can be sure that gerrymandering, fucking with the supreme court, playing bullshit political games with voter ID all makes it harder to vote in a 3rd party candidate too

                • PupBiru@kbin.social
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                  change has nothing to do with people until it does… change is just change. change when it comes to people and social systems is effective only when it effects the majority of people that are touched by an issue. voting 3rd party after not for some time is change of a kind, but i wouldn’t call it social change

                  social change comes when a large number of people decide something should be different, and the mathematics and sociology behind first past the post means that it’d take something so close to impossible that it’s not worth classing in the realms of possibility for a 3rd party to have any effect on the political system

                  the reality of the system is that the US is a 2 party system… the statistics of FPTP, and the game theory that leads to defensive voting, spoiler effect, and any number of other bad outcomes ensures that

                  within such a system, you just can’t hope to have an outcome other than 1 of the 2 parties having any real impact, thus you have to change 1 of the parties to be the way you want it to be, or you must change the system

                  you could argue that voting 3rd party forces the parties to change their positions, but historically that hasn’t really happened so i personally wouldn’t hold my breath

                  vote defensively, and work to change the system… because changing the system is incremental, achievable, and less subject to the whims of a few

    • penquinOP
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      Wow, finally, a fucking sane comment. There is hope still then.

    • PupBiru@kbin.social
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      okay but that’s just screaming into the void… they gain nothing from your vote, you gain nothing from your vote… it doesn’t matter how worthy they are, it’s exactly the same in literally every way as not voting

      • Call me Lenny/Leni
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        They gain a vote from my vote (a vote like any other, and it’s not like one of the leading parties doesn’t someday naturally lose as well), and I gain the license to say I acted like a person in this democracy, not the kind of person who “just follows orders” just because the outcome of those who do is the most likely to succeed. I could always “not vote” but I might as well try. To try and fail is better to never try. And I will always vote based on my own genuine thoughts and nobody else’s, naturally this means not voting for the two candidates who are the embodiment of taking things for granted. Plus it’s not like nobody is tuning in.

        • PupBiru@kbin.social
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          okay but a vote doesn’t actually benefit anyone, and neither does being able to say you “acted like a person”

          a vote is worthless on its own. a vote is only worthwhile when it has a chance of producing an outcome, and a vote for 3rd party has no chance of producing any outcome

          you get to take some moral high ground, which is great that you can do that and risk very little… meanwhile, people’s lives are actually at risk

          its a shit situation: nobody is denying that at all (well i’m sure some people are, but i sure ain’t!)… but realistically, the only way to make any difference is (as someone further up thread put it) to tug the tug of war rope on the direction you prefer, while working to change the game

          • Call me Lenny/Leni
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            That’s the thing. How do you define a chance of producing an outcome? You define it by people deciding to vote to make that difference. To go about it based on how others vote is to be a follower, and to make a difference is leading. I vote regardless of apparent voter outcome because I am devoted to contributing to said outcome. I’m trying to be the change I want in the world. The leading two people have always made it clear that choosing people based on what they have going for them is their game, a game I fight by doing exactly as I do. To be “realistic”, as you say, is to surrender.

            • PupBiru@kbin.social
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              okay, but now you’re fighting game theory and maths

              that’s just not going to work out well

              it’s irrelevant what you want at the end of the day… voting for some “best” option is only useful if it’s even remotely likely to happen… don’t get me wrong, if it’s a slim chance of a great outcome that’s one thing but the odds of everyone deciding to do the same thing at the same time are basically 0

              sure, vote how you like, but you’re more likely to win the lottery than to have a 3rd party candidate elected and i think we can all agree you don’t buy lottery tickets because you think you might win

              • Call me Lenny/Leni
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                I just don’t think voting for the least useful candidate who happens to be the one up on stage is by definition more useful. It’s similar to upvoting/downvoting a Reddit comment when almost everyone else is going the opposite way. You could argue resistance is futile, but you’ll probably do it anyways.

                • PupBiru@kbin.social
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                  okay, well if the republicans had their way i’d be tortured forever in conversion therapy, there’d be no movement at all on green energy, the solution to homelessness would probably boil down to if you’re going through a rough patch it’s execution time, christianity would be mandatory

                  both sides are NOT the same… 1 side is mostly inept, and the other side is actively trying to persecute people, to which i’d say

                  First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
                  Because I was not a socialist.

                  Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
                  Because I was not a trade unionist.

                  Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
                  Because I was not a Jew.

                  Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

        • lolcatnip@reddthat.com
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          I gain the license to say I acted like a person in this democracy,

          In other words, you get to indulge your vanity.

    • Grant_M@lemmy.ca
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      Exactly. No matter what, there’s always a worse option. Always vote against the worse option.

      • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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        That then lets the least worse option have no actual policies, make zero substantive change while in office because they know you will always vote for them.

        But that is more about FPTP voting and the two party system.

        • Grant_M@lemmy.ca
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          Biden has accomplished more legislation and gained more jobs than any POTUS since FDR. Not too bad.

    • Pons_Aelius@kbin.social
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      I am glad you can keep the faith and keep voting but I also understand the OP’s (and a lot of other american’s) ennui.

      When it seems the Dems biggest selling point is “Well, at least we are not the GOP” but have little or no actual policies to enrich the lives of the people who vote for them it must be very disheartening for millions of your average citizens when their options are terrible or more of the same with no real improvement.

      • PeepinGoodArgs@reddthat.com
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        That’s the thing though, Democrats have superb policies to enrich the lives of people who vote for them, but they fucking suck at selling it.

        Joe Biden’s Inflation Reduction Act, for example, is forecasted to create millions of renewable energy jobs over the next 10 years.. Not to mention, investments in renewable energy help modernize American infrastructure in a variety of ways, and do something or another about U.S. greenhouse gas emissions. And it does more than that! Honestly, the IRA is a huge deal.

        And what do people hear? Fox News anchors talking about Bidenomics and high inflation, how his fiscal policy is only destroying America and putting us further into debt. And the Heritage Foundation and AEI.org have economists that present their free market analysis that necessarily demonizes all government “interference” in markets, making it impossible for people to see any value in anything Biden is doing.

        And the more liberal media just like…not…doing anything at all. They just play into boring as culture wars, giving fodder to right-wing fools, and convincing normal Americans that the left is removed from reality. The sheer lack of policy discussion on liberal media channels does a disservice to everyone really. It even leaves Biden supporters unable to say what good he’s done.

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          Possibly controversial opinion, the left needs a Fox News. A station that just unapologetically pushes liberal talking points and pays newsworthiness the same lip service that Fox does. Fuck this holier than thou bullshit we’ve got going on; fight propaganda with better propaganda.

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        1 year ago

        the only other candidate that’s reasonable possible to be in his place is far worse

        so there’s that