This has been a hot topic for conservatives. I fully support Ukraine, but at some point, they have to say they can’t push Russia out. Ukraine does not have the manpower or firepower to dislodge Russia. They’ve tried and failed. Western support is starting to go down because they have not made progress.
I don’t know the solution, but right now, it’s just a war of attrition, and Ukraine loses in that scenario. I suspect this will be a big topic of discussion during the presidential debates.
They haven’t failed. They need advanced firepower and continued support. Putin from the start is relying on you lot sticking a spoke in the gears, and unsurprisingly conservatives are lining up to do his bidding.
You have a golden opportunity to boost US businesses (most Ukraine aid never leaves the US); hammer a rival, hostile nation; and prevent further encroachment on your allies. Further, all this comes at zero cost of US lives.
Or you could let Putin win.
Conservatives are sabotaging Ukraine’s efforts by not giving them every thing they need right now? That is a very entitled attitude.
The question is how much does funding a proxy war against Russia help the US. For some the bemifits have outweighed the costs, for others it is a holy crusade and no cost is too great.
I fully support Ukraine, but at some point, you have to say they are up shit creek. They lost the counter-offensive, we can’t keep up with their demand for ammunition. If they keep at this rate, they will collapse. If China were to invade Taiwan or North Korea to invade South Korea, we wouldn’t be able to put up a solid defense since we have given away so much ammo.
The counter-offensive failed. They did not re-claim any real amount of territory. They need a lot of things but it isn’t our job to keep supplying them. We are putting our own country at risk by depleting our stockpiles.
and who is you lot? I clearly stated I support Ukraine but there is a certain point you have to say if this continues, Ukraine is going to collapse. The US has publically stated they believe the losses are about 1:1. That means Ukraine is a lot worse off than Russia if this continues.
At some point you have to say it’s not worth the money we are spending and exposing our sensitive technology to hostile nations.
The US has publically stated they believe the losses are about 1:1
Can I see your source for that?
The counter-offensive failed. They did not re-claim any real amount of territory
Categorically untrue. It’s certainly stalled, in large part because Russia was allowed the time to dig in deeply, as Ukraine was drip-fed the arms and ammo they desperately needed. You can’t use the fact that Ukraine has not been properly supplied as reasoning to stop supplying them completely.
At some point you have to say it’s not worth the money we are spending and exposing our sensitive technology to hostile nations.
Again, most of the ‘aid money’ stays in your country. The money you are ‘spending’ is enriching US businesses and creating jobs. Further, the ‘sensitive technology’ is almost exclusively stockpiled weaponry that, if unused, would need to be binned eventually.
Leaving weapons gathering dust until they’re not usable in case someone discovers how they work is utter lunacy. They were made to be used, and even better, you don’t have to lift a finger as Ukrainian soldiers are the ones risking their lives.
Putin will not stop at Ukraine. The global system of order is at stake. The US looks pretty weak right now, and it’s all thanks to conservatives (that’s who I mean by ‘you lot’, I presume you’re a conservative since you’re posting anti-Ukraine material to a conservative group).
If you genuinely support Ukraine, then you’d support properly arming them so they can defend their country from a nation that’s hostile to both them AND you. Russia has ratfucked your election system, ratfucked your congress and senate, interfered with your democracy (such as it is), as well as mine and many other countries. You should be gunning to get at them, not bending over backwards to do their bidding. Which is what you’re doing by blocking funding for Ukraine.
Putin will not stop at Ukraine. The global system of order is at stake.
In what fucking universe does Russia have that much military capabilities? They arguably only barely had it at the height of the ussr, let alone today
Putin isn’t the only threat to global stability. I didn’t say ‘Russia will conquer the world’. Think.
What message does it send to countries like China (vs Taiwan who are crucial for chip manufacturing) when the USA is too weak to counter Russia?
China would have to be insane to invade Taiwan, us involvement or not.
when the USA is too weak to counter Russia?
Lmao good to know you’re entirely divorced from reality
Remind me again, which USA political party sent a bunch of their senators to Moscow on Independance Day? Was it the one you vote for?
We don’t vote for parties. We vote for people. What senator from Oregon went to Moscow?
Right now I can’t see China invading. They would destroy everything they want to keep. China could win the war, but that would be a pyrrhic victory.
Exactly. China stands to gain basically nothing from an invasion. Taiwan has naturally defensible terrain, and the only thing they have of value is the semiconductor industry, which would be destroyed in the war. And both the optics and casualties would absolutely suck for China and ruin their reputation hard.
Don’t worry. We will get the Democrats out before they weaken us to much more. All the whining they did about defense spending has allowed Ukraine to hold Russia off for two years. Had the Republicans not spent the money, Ukraine would have fallen after a week.
We will get the Democrats out before they weaken us to much more
You got the wrong guys.
That isn’t weakening our military. Most of the paper pushers at top are pure political and do more harm than good. Milley did a lot of damage with his woke bullshit
The army is diverse by nature and has a purpose. It isn’t to preach woke values. They can’t figure out why recruiting is down when they attack the people most likely to join.
Can I see your source for that? It is poor form to ask for common knowledge. I did a quick search and this one doesn’t show the one to one ratio. It does show Ukraine is losing a larger portion of its troops.
https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-russia-death-toll-questions-bakhmut-counteroffensive-1800947
Russia’s death toll has surpassed 200,000, Kyiv’s military said on Wednesday, but the updated figure also raises questions about the losses sustained by Ukraine as its forces prepare a counteroffensive. A leaked document from the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency which circulated online in April 2023 suggested that Ukraine had sustained between 124,000 and 131,000 total casualties.
Categorically untrue. It’s certainly stalled, in large part because Russia was allowed the time to dig in deeply, as Ukraine was drip-fed the arms and ammo they desperately needed. You can’t use the fact that Ukraine has not been properly supplied as reasoning to stop supplying them completely.
It is categorically true. The counter-offensive has failed. There is no way to spin it otherwise. They did not achieve their military objective before winter. That is a failure. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/us/politics/us-ukraine-war-strategy.html
If you genuinely support Ukraine, then you’d support properly arming them so they can defend their country from a nation that’s hostile to both them AND you. Ukraine is not defending America. Russia won’t attack America. The last time they did, Trump killed hundreds of Wagner soldiers.
Russia attacks your country in many ways, not just with troops. Do you know what asymmetric warfare means?
Your ‘source’ for 1:1 figure is a leaked, unverified document?
The one to one was a comment from general Milley.
And we do the same to Russia.
It is blatantly obvious that you have no idea what you’re talking about.
Gotta toe the party line though right? Gotta support dear leader and repeat whatever they feed you.
Fair warning, do not make personal attacks. Make an argument, keep it civil, all that good stuff.
Sure, show me where I am wrong.
And don’t make personal attacks. Stick to the topic.
People already have rebutted, you’re just going to argue with the bullshit you got from GOP/Russian propogandists.
Nobody has rebutted. They’ve whined. I’ve cited my claims.
So what do you think I’m inaccurate about old sport since unliked you. I’ve cited my claims
You have not cited sources for all your claims. And Newsweek is not a reliable source for military analysis. So do yourself a favor and don’t try to use them for your other claims.
Which claim do you think is not supported? Newsweek is more reliable than you. So cite away. All you have done so far is babble, try to be partisan, and try to insult. Be better. Use your words.
Republicans have to be mad at Ukraine and pro-Russia because Trump is mad at Ukraine and pro-Russia. Anyone who doesn’t sincerely express the same sentiments as dear leader Trump risks ostracization. The party of free-thinking rugged individualists. Of course, liberals have the same failing to some degree.
I think there could be a lot more international pressure brought to bear on Russia. That alone added to the current situation would not be enough to save Ukraine, but I can imagine scenarios in which Russia decides it’s not worth it to continue.
I think the Republican leadership is mainly going against Ukraine to spite the Democrats. Most Republicans I know (not leadership) support Ukraine, at least to some extent.
I am the strongest supporter I know but I won’t support American troops on the ground. I also won’t support our most advanced weapons going to Ukraine but luckily that hasn’t even been suggested.
Republican leaders are against something you personally support, and you feel they take that position just to spite the democrats huh? So attacking a sovereign nation and various war crimes (deliberately targeting civilians, rape, torture, bombing a children’s and maternity hospital, etc, etc) are less important to them than sticking it to the democrats? Am I understanding this correctly?
It’s my pet theory. Name another war republicans haven’t wanted to fight? I can’t think of any. They didn’t seem to mind when Trump started to send them lethal weapons. They only cared when Biden did.
And don’t act so pious. Democrats have openly done the same with Israel. Hamas did the same things as Russia. Yet democrats are defending them like crazy.
It is because of my piety that the whole thing seems sus. Israel has a right to defend itself but somehow Ukraine doesn’t. I remember prophets in the Bible pointing out that Israel had become unrighteous, corrupt and wayward, but now ppl act like it is impossible for Israel to do any wrong. Hamas is a group of horrible terrorists, ( yes they are horrible terrorists) but Putin’s invasion of Ukraine is “genius” and “savvy” according to Trump.
I’m just over here praying for peace.
Ukraine does as well. Im not sure where you’re getting they don’t
I’m referring to the article you posted, and to the many republicans that clearly don’t feel that the defence of freedom and democracy, nor the existence of Ukraine and the Ukrainian people are important. If they did, they wouldn’t use aid as a bargaining chip in an attempt get extremist border policies passed.
Nothing extreme about protecting your border. You seem to think we must ignore our border and pay for the defense of Ukraine.
The only obligation we have is to keep our country safe.
First let’s give them all of JD Vance’s property and maybe his kids and then let’s see if that ends the war.
Do you think Ukraine can defeat Russia with dwindling support? Do you think Ukraine should continue to fight until they collapse?
I think Russia is way likelier to collapse first.
You would think. The major issue is Ukraine has a much smaller population. They cannot sustain the losses even if they are half of Russia.
General Milley has stated he thinks the losses are about equal, which would be devastating for Ukraine.
I thought when the counter offensive started, the Russian lines would collapse fairly quickly. They have not. They have held up to the attacks well.
I also thought Russia would run out of ammo but that hasn’t seemed to have happened either. NATO is having a hard time keeping up the production to support Ukraine. Yet, somehow Russia seems to keep getting ammo. I know North Korea has sent them some but that is garbage ammo.
Ukraine can’t win a war of attrition. They just don’t have the manpower for it. For whatever reason, the Russians seem to have more willpower than I would have expected. This isn’t their war.
The major issue is Ukraine has a much smaller population. They cannot sustain the losses even if they are half of Russia.
But the losses so far are roughly proportionally equal.
General Milley has stated he thinks the losses are about equal, which would be devastating for Ukraine.
Proportionally equal.
NATO is having a hard time keeping up the production to support Ukraine.
It’s war. It sucks. That’s just how it is.
But if a struggling supply chain means that Russia can’t do as many war crimes and rapes, I’m ok with that.
Ukraine can’t win a war of attrition.
Russia thought they’d collapse within weeks. Ukraine has surpassed the wildest expectations.
But the losses so far are roughly proportionally equal
According to Milley; they’re almost the same. That’s not good for Ukraine as Russia has a much larger population
But if a struggling supply chain means that Russia can’t do as many war crimes and rapes, I’m ok with that
Not sure you understand the issue. It means Ukraine is going to run out of ammo and won’t be able to fight back. Ukraine is consuming more ammo than nato can produce. After years of democrats cutting defense. We don’t have the capability to fight a real war. With the more advanced systems, we can’t just spin up a factory overnight. It’s a serious issue.
According to Milley; they’re almost the same. That’s not good for Ukraine as Russia has a much larger population
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/proportional
Not sure you understand the issue. It means Ukraine is going to run out of ammo and won’t be able to fight back
People have been saying that since the war started. Yawn.
After years of democrats cutting defense.
NATO isn’t solely controlled by democrats. You are severely lacking in understanding of how NATO works.
Maybe you have kept up on th me need. Ukraine is rationing ammo because they are low. That’s a new development.
NATO isn’t sending the bulk of the supplies. The United States is. Most of nato had already run low on artillery rounds. That’s America doing the heavy lifting which has been cut over years of democrats saying we spend to much of defense.
The solution is for the US to stop getting involved in every other country’s problems
Well I can’t disagree with that. I am not a huge Trump fan for many reasons but I did like when he called out our ‘allies’ when they were not spending their agreed on amount. About time someone did it.
NATO is only valuable if everyone contributes their fair share. Otherwise it’s us once again protecting Europe. That isn’t our job.
Our job is to protect America.
If you ask me, we should pull out of nato. It serves no purpose for us in this day and age. And if history shows anything, it’s that this perpetual meddling is exactly how we get dragged into direct wars where we send thousands of Americans to die for some random country too incompetent to hold their own.
[NATO] serves no purpose for us in this day and age
Russia invading its neighbors
Right
Unless you’re genuinely concerned about the possibility of Russia launching a naval invasion of Alaska, you might note that the US is not a neighbor of Russia.
Beyond that, Europe is plenty capable of defending itself. Russia isn’t the military power is used to be.
Europe should be able to defend itself. It isn’t our job to spend our tax money defending Europe all the time.
I think it is also a drain on our resources. We spend billions protecting other countries when they don’t protect themselves. It isn’t our job to protect Europe. We have had to save them several times from themselves
