I don’t know if any CW are required for this but if so suggest them and I will add. I’m not mentioning any particular hateful things; just the presence of them.
An old comrade of mine has fallen into the grips of anti trans bigotry.
It has been happening for 10+ years and I have raised the issue multiple times when we’ve been together or in touch. They downplayed their investment in the ideas.
Recently I have learned that it has crept into their mass organizing. This person is an excellent, committed, powerful organizer working for years at a local level.
I think they are now getting in to organizing explicitly on anti-trans grounds. They have capacity to be highly effective at this. But really it is the integration of anti-trans stuff into legitimate mass organizing work that is more dangerous. My understanding is that they are seeking to orient these orgs against the interests of trans people and to exclude trans people and even trans-allied people from organizing.
This person made many key political contributions to who I am. Much of the good I have done as an organizer is due to their influence on me. Without them I would have ended up the most insufferable kind of lib. On a personal level, it breaks my heart to see this has happened to a dear friend. I feel compelled to attempt to return the wisdom and patience they afforded me when I needed it, and offer them a better perspective, help them be a better organizer.
I plan to attempt intervention. We live far away from each other but do keep occasional contact. Less so over recent years just due to being on different social media platforms. I could get some correspondence and maybe a phone call to discuss this on the basis of our long standing relationship. I would offer to maintain the dialogue on going if they were willing.
- general advice?
- have you tried this and if so how did it go?
- is there hope?
- some kind of FAQ covering anti-trans misinformation; more in-depth and comprehensive would be better (for me to read)
- writing/ideas aimed specifically at communists/socialists
- theory to understand trans* from marxist/materialist perspective
- I know this sounds stupid but they already have theory to hate trans*
- This person is coming at it from a TERF (as in actual old school radical feminsm) perspective, not a right-wing/fash perspective
- The idea of “bourgeois decadence” is important here. It’s not something I ever found to be very compelling so I don’t have much analysis to counter it.
Of course I have my own ideas and knowledge but I’m sure all of the above has been perfected so I want to make sure I have the best at top of mind.
This person is pretty stubborn, as required to be a lifelong revolutionary. So I know I’m not going to turn the ship around in one conversation. I am considering strategy of reformism or harm reduction. For example if I could convince them to avoid bringing these ideas into their organizing, even while still holding them privately, it would be a benefit.
The idea of “bourgeois decadence” is the leftist-flavor-but-same-brainworm fed to the others, tailor made to work your emotions and think of the target as morally inferior. chuds get jesus and kids baths, libs get ‘cheating’ and ‘terf stolen honor’, leftists get ‘bougeiosie decadence’. Easy to prop someone when your nudge our human wish to be superior. Dunno where they picked up that glitch but maybe if you pointed out how similar it is to the brainworms they’ve shed to get this far there’s hope.
The idea of “bourgeois decadence” is important here. It’s not something I ever found to be very compelling so I don’t have much analysis to counter it.
The obvious answer here is that there are millions upon millions of trans people who have just never come out or transitioned, because it’s just unsafe or not materially feasible for them. Calling transitioning “bourgeois decadence” is like saying that having clean drinking water is bourgeois decadence, simply because the wealthy don’t struggle with acquiring it like the poor do.
Anyways I’d handwritten a whole essay maybe a year ago presenting a case for supporting trans rights from a materialist perspective, but it was too long to fit in a Lemmy comment so maybe I’ll share that as its own post later. I’m not sure if I agree with it 100% in hindsight but it’s still got some interesting thoughts.
Otherwise Marxism Today made a video on trans liberation, and I’ve been meaning to check out Feinberg.
Ya I find the argument compelling but does it address what people mean when they say decadence? I will maybe have to go learn about the idea better because it seems easily defeated. Is there anything labeled decadent that your counter argument doesn’t apply to?
maybe I’ll share that as its own post later.
please at me if you can remember :)
Trans Liberation & Marxism: Is Gender Identity Actually Anti-Materialist? | Let’s Talk Patriarchy - I put it into my phone for listening, thanks
Feinberg: I read the main works years ago and I don’t think is going to be helpful here unless he also wrote totally different lesser-known stuff someone could specifically recommend. My recollection is that he was writing for a popular audience who either are trans people themselves or are friendly to the idea. And sprinkling some marxism in. Certainly he must have encountered people like this in his life though, so maybe there’s something.
I’m only speaking for myself, but the impression that I get from the term “bourgeois decadence” is essentially that someone is so rich that thon can just flout social norms more or less without consequence, and that because the bourgeoisie already necessarily oppresses the proletariat in order to exist, that capitalists are going to be shitty people who will desire to disregard social norms more than proletarians.
The problem comes when someone acts like every instance of a rich person using their wealth to flout a social norm is “cut from the same cloth” — this is an uncritical way of looking at social norms. In truth some social norms which are widespread among the proletariat do serve the interests of the class, but many other social norms have been imposed by the bourgeoisie (or just as well inherited during proletarianization and never unlearned), and many other social norms still have some aspects which are beneficial and some aspects which are harmful to the proletariat. To figure out which social norms belong in which categories, one needs to actually analyze the roles that these norms play in society in context.
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
The video on Marxism Today was really good especially towards the end the part about dialectics and sexual metaphysics. I’m going to follow the citations on those ones.
Good luck! Hope you can pull them out, but just be ready for a tough struggle.
Break their jaw?
yeah sorry you’re not a comrade if you hate trans people
This is terrifying, but thankfully I think I can give you an argument for the “bourgeois decadence” part. It’s simply absurd, the vast majority of trans people are poor and I mean this in the sense that trans people who are poor are out of proportion with the general poor population when compared to the rich. They are far more likely to be victims of bourgeois decadence, either as scapegoats, sexually exploited, or financially exploited like the rest of the working class. Even if all of the former is ignored, the amount of trans rich people is not even remotely out of proportion in the way that would imply it is some sort of extant result of bourgeois ideology or decadent excess. Trans people exist in poor populations all across the world, which all have this same dynamic I mentioned here. There is absolutely no coherent reading of the current material situation that would imply that trans people are a result of economic excess, or specifically economic excess on the part of bourgeois being used for some sort of morally debased activity.
A much more likely explanation is that the very idea that transness is “bourgeois excess” comes from internalized, idealistic, Christian ideals of morality. Georges Politzer pointed out that for a lot of his students (and assumedly people in general) live under idealistic assumptions despite being “materialists at heart”. Unfortunately being a revolutionary doesn’t automatically remove all of those assumptions unless self-examination is done.
I’m really concerned here. If you have to you may need to go around their back to stop them from getting significant influence in their orgs. This is just generally bad, I’m sorry you’re going through this.
Snap. I don’t think it would be wrong ascribe some of this to the more repressed sort of calvinism and I doubt the person in question would even deny this. It has been present all along accompanied by personality traits favoring adherence to group norms and a feeling that people who draw to much attention to themselves are unseemly. This of course can be very useful in an organizer. But on a personal level I can see how a baseline sort of uneasiness with people who are (or as perceived as) “weird” could open the door a crack and then these stupid ideas come flooding in to justify it politically.
If you have to you may need to go around their back to stop them from getting significant influence in their orgs.
This is a long-time, established organizer and I am far away. There is nothing I can do about it. This whole swing has been pretty public, that’s the only reason it came to my attention, so I’m sure everyone knows about it. You know how it is though, it’s hard for organizations/movements to give up on people who are otherwise effective and reliable. Efforts to do so can be viewed as trying to enforce an unrealistic ideological purity which is not viable in a mass organization.
One thing that has surprised me in finding out what this person has been up to is the complete lack of political and organizational discipline exhibited. It’s one of the most useful things they taught to me about, having come out of a much more freewheeling context previously. Of course they’ve kind of fit their politics somewhat into this stupid obsession, but when I have read some of the stuff they have written on the subject, it’s really fucking weak. Like there is a lot of times when they are writing about their feelings of discomfort and trying to pull the reader along in feeling it as well. I never would have anticipated someone who’s situational analysis can be sharp as a razor blade would ever be doing political writings focusing around getting the willies— on any subject. We don’t organize a union because our boss has bad breath. We don’t organize against a landlord because they have terrible fashion sense. We don’t organize against a politician because we disapprove of their sex life. We have principled political and material reasons for doing these things. Even if our enemies may be unsettling in an interpersonal way, you might mention it here or there in a meme but needing to have it be at the center belies to me how shitty the underlying ideas are. (And makes it look more like some sort of creeping fascism than misdirected communism in which case I really doubt there is anything I will be able to do.) And I am really surprised that this person has allowed themselves to be snookered in this way to replace political with emotional analysis.
You could beat them up. It probably won’t do anything when it comes to being anti trans but it might feel good. Plus they deserve it.
That fighting against culture of bourgeois decadence is, in itself, decadence of material philosophy. Being exploited doesn’t give a shit about someone being trans, but it surely helps when there is society around them ostracize them. Or there are socialists to rally around dividing working people, fbi would be thrilled.
They can just join pinkertons and cutout the ideological middleman in their head, if they (plan to) organize not against capital, but against fellow workers or divide them across
racialgender lines. usa has rich history of unions doing that with race and immigrants, didn’t work out so wellha! I have considered asking them if they have come into the employ of the state. or if they have considered that they might have been the target either individually or as part of a group, of a campaign of distraction/diversion/division. Even if I was completely neutral on the idea of trans people, I would be able to see that this person’s eyes are no longer on the prize.
Not sure it’s a winning argument directly. If I was targeting people around them to try to minimize their influence I would use it.
Depends on their self-reflexiveness, maybe it will become a needle probing consciousness when their thoughts go in that direction, maybe it won’t, never know without knowing a person. I’m not saying tell them they are feds or imply it, i’m saying they might be doing fed work for free influenced by some societal germs floating around (and you can’t come to those ideas intelectually, stranded on a lone island traveller won’t arrive at the idea of trans people not being real).
i have no advice on this but it scares me this is starting to creep into the left like this
i’ve had plenty of experience getting chuds to become either pro-trans rights or at least neutral on it but never fellow leftists
You’ve never gotten a leftist to become trans affirmative/neutral because you never had to try? Or because the ones you met are all so entrenched that you failed?
none i’ve met in person weren’t already trans affirmative
I tried to save one such person, all they did was try to use me as a token. It sounds like they are properly cooked. Even putting out my disagreements in text didnt help - i tried other approaches. Usually they dig their heels in very fast and are too embarassed about losing face bc leftist pecking order dictates you have to be correct all the time or face social oblivion (not really, but people can think this is the case)
I am definitely concerned about being used as a token or otherwise inadvertently feeding the beast. Like if I try to provide anything with nuance, my words can get picked apart and weaponized.
I think this person is already alienated somewhat from their local left over this issue and its concequences… But to whatever extent this is the case it would be seen as throwing off dead weight---- pretenders who don’t have what it takes to really engage in struggle with working class people. Although I’m sure some will just ignore it for the same of an ongoing relationship with a successful organizer if not ideological agreement.
But now that’s happened I guess there are other people around, cheering them on. Those people’s opinions will be super important and nothing I say or do can replace the value. Changing course now would lead to real isolation. sigh
like this will suck, but if you can’t change them by talking to them one on one, you have to make sure they stay limited in their reach, is my take. They have an environment which rewards and affirms theiir views. My mistake was hanging around “ML-ish” people who were only as progressive as it was politically expedient to them, after finding out they can get ahead by embracing TERFism, they threw that all away
Same thing happened to me. Unfortunately the way it went is every social call I had with them devolved into long tedious and infuriating discussions that quickly dispelled the large amount of respect I had for them. I had to become like some kind of fucking journalist in my off-hours searching out info to debug random shit they read online. Eventually we just stopped talking as there was nothing positive actually keeping the relationship together. They’re probably off running for schoolboard so they can better prosecute their bigoted shit now.
NGL, if you can’t have a face to face conversation with them multiple times, you’re probably not going to be successful. You can’t really out theory someone online bc it often just turns into debatelord shit (even if that’s not your intention.) this is especially true with TERFs because they can be very cult-like. There’s a good chance that if you find the theory you want, they’re gonna take that theory to some TERF community and a bunch of people are gonna reverse-engineer some objection to it.
the problem is, if someone is a leftist and they can’t see the obvious reality that anti-trans bigotry is a tool the ruling class uses to divide and conquer, and they’re willing to live in a country where trans kids are literally committing suicide and/or being bullied by their classmates and the state, they’re kinda a lost cause at that point. I’m nonbinary, there’s a group of people who just refuse to see me as a human being, nothing I’m gonna say is gonna convince them to.
You might be able to come at them from a practical perspective that anti-trans bigotry makes them less effective as an organizer because it turns them into a wrecker.
I’m not saying this is impossible because I don’t know you or know them, but you gotta be really prepared for this to fail before you go into it. What you’re doing is admirable! I’m not being a naysayer, but a lot of legit TERFs often end up in that place because other TERFs weaponized some kind of trauma against them to make them think that way. For example, look at Dave Chappelle. Though he’s not a legit TERF, it’s been speculated that part of the reason he took the transphobic path was out of a real and valid anger at how white queer people weaponize racism against Black men while still claiming the oppressed class status. I don’t think that justifies hating trans people but it is a valid criticism since many white trans people are still fine being racist (see: lib trans people supporting Israel)
the real issue is the claim that trans is bourgeois decadence. someone spouting that nonsense doesn’t know anything about trans people. most of us are poor! most trans people live in the Global South. if someone ends up taking that position, they’re just completely out of pocket to the point where they might not be reachable.
all good points.
On the one hand I know that others have attempted to reach this person to pull them out. And on the other hand, there are anti-trans people who are in close physical proximity. So it’s low chance. But maybe with what I can say combined with what other people can say, and do, maybe after a while it’ll click.
I will probably try to use my distance as a virtue. I don’t have any skin in any organizational disputes. I’m not trying to get anything. I am not allied to any faction. I honestly feel sad that my old friend has been diminished in this way. It’s not hypothetical to describe them as a wrecker; from their own description of it, which is from a such a warped perspective, it seems the case. But on the left we have to have a bit of a contrarian streak don’t we. So sometimes we are able to displace blame from ourselves because otherwise we’d take the whole weight of capitalism on our shoulders. So it can be hard to recognize when we are in fact to blame.
A human being’s individual choices about what we do with our own bodies is not up for debate, and doesn’t require any explanation. It’s creepy to be so obsessed with it and it really shows the sexual pathology of politics theory. It is a derailment of the actual material goals of leftist movements, because “eeeww, a trans!”. Like, if suddenly trans people didn’t exist, how would his life be any different? It wouldn’t, and any suggestion to the contrary by them is an admission of fabricating things because they’re plane bigoted.
A rare W for Trotsky: “if you cannot convince a fascist, acquaint his head with the pavement”.
theory to understand trans* from marxist/materialist perspective
maybe i’m in over my head here but perhaps this fits? https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/vikky-storm-the-gender-accelerationist-manifesto
The Gender Accelerator ALWAYS fitsthank you :3
What’s sort of things? Post their concerns and I’m sure hexbear will be there to answer every point.
Hey comrade I only just saw this, just incase you havent already already read transgender liberation
https://hexbear.net/post/72043
also if you dont end up being able to talk sense to this person, have a little faith people in organising spaces know what transphobia is and will attempt stop them (i hope)
