- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemmygrad.ml
- cross-posted to:
- palestine@lemmygrad.ml
Note:
I swapped the original article at the request of a mod to from a source deemed more reliable, but to avoid confusion when reading the comment section prior to this edit, here is the link to the original article. I chose the Relief Web source listed by some who commented. Cheers!
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WSWS isn’t a great source because it’s based on a cause.
However, here’s the report.
It’s uh… Not good.
At what point does the Foreign Assistance Act’s ban on sending aid to countries in violation of human rights standards come into play? It seems like we’re getting a report on a new war crime every few days, which is a breathtaking rate for a professional Army.
At what point does the Foreign Assistance Act’s ban on sending aid to countries in violation of human rights standards come into play?
when it’s politically convenient and not a moment before
Too true.
Sad but true
I just saw a report that the US is going to agree to a UN resolution to let more aid into Gaza. I wonder if this is why.
It’s looking like Biden is trying to score brownie points for Christmas season so people stop talking about him committing genocide in the birth land of Jesus during family diners.
If it helps Palestinians I’ll take it, regardless if it’s just for political points or not.
It won’t be popular here - but that report is just a report of allegations and is also not substantiated by anything?
If the UN says it, it’s always true.
The report includes the sources.
The report is just repeating allegations and asking for an investigation. Did no one else read it?
It is not a finding of fact or anything similar.
The report here also does not include sources or evidence.
The current membership of the HRC is: Albania, Brazil, Bulgaria, Burundi, China, Côte d’Ivoire, Cuba, Dominican Republic, France, Ghana, Indonesia, Japan, Kuwait, Malawi and the Netherlands.
Do with that what you will.
It literally tells you exactly which NGO did the original information gathering. And if Israel wants better treatment at the UN they should stop running an Apartheid government.
That is neither evidence nor a source.
It is literally a source. And you won’t see actual evidence without going there yourself.
Genocide Joe removed any restriction of human rights violations on the aid for israel so until you vote him out
Oh yes because Trump would use our forces to do it instead.
Look, don’t counter with 3rd party. That’s literally throwing your vote away.
Biden is the only way to beat Trump. There are backwards racists in the Democrats too. You’re not going to get support for anything than an old white guy until at least 2028…
Isn’t what you’re doing straight up “whataboutism”?
Not when presented with “vote him out.” At that point, you have to look at what that realistically looks like. If just pointing out what’s wrong with Biden, then bringing Republicans up would be. But if you’re looking at the choice between the two, it only makes sense to talk about them.
See you in the camps!
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Who are you to tell people they are throwing THEIR votes away?
A person with an understanding of math
Americans will vote for two genocide enabling people before they even realize that they always had a choice. You people are so brainwashed it’s scary. The democracy you have is a farce
No matter what you think is the proper way to approach change, in the meantime you are better off not voting for the authoritarian.
Yup, and voting third party.
They are completely free to say that
I read it as it’s not up to somebody else to decide if your choice of vote is a waste.
It’s up to each person to decide what to do with their own vote.
Sure, they’re free to say it and the other person is free to point out that it’s not up to “Anonymous Internet Person” to decide what is the right way for me to vote.
From my point of view in a system that’s nowehere as undemocratic as the US, these “things are the way they are, so we have to accept these constraints” kind of responses to that post sure look like the kind of passive acceptance of injustice so common in dictatorships.
Go ahead, throw your vote away!
Just don’t cry when you’re in the camps .
What camp? Is this related to the rape centers from a few posts back?
It’s one of the possible activities. I’m looking forward to basket weaving.
Probably a place where there’s a lot of concentration on finding solutions. You know, the final kind?
Just say “I don’t care about Genocide I only care about my student loans. Fuck Arab babies they can all die if I get some money. I am as morally reprehensible as every single billionaire I condemn”.
Take your mask off already and stop pretending.
Friend I don’t want to be raped to death in a 2025 US concentration camp so I’m voting for Joe. I’m sorry this is what it’s come down to for many of us.
Idiot
Yeah they said this shit in 2016 and you’re all still alive. You can drop the fear mongering act now and just say you want all Arabs to die.
Thank you for explaining myself to me. I have never been more ecstatic to be a woman than after hearing this enlightened kind sentiment.
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I’m just glad you don’t give a shit about babies, kids and women ACTUALLY being mass murdered by Biden.
Children’s hospitals full of little kids with already blown off legs are being bombed by Genocide Joe just to make sure they all die. But your fears are the only thing that matter in this world.
You just told a woman genuinely afraid of getting raped to get over it and that she actually hates xyz people.
You need to pause for a moment and ask yourself where you’ve gone wrong.
Shes not genuinely afraid. She’s trying to conflate rape with the opposition to win a argument
You just justified Nazism and Genocide by saying “vote for Genocide Joe else something bad might happen to me instead of brown people I don’t know!”
Ask yourself that question. Where are your morals?
Hitler would have loved the current Americans in WW2.
Dude, chill.
I hate Trump but the stuff these people make up is absurd. How does voting for Trump lead to rape centers; except for the ones that already exist for Mexicans…
This is a good video if you’re asking in good faith.
Oh yes Trump, well known for opposition to authoritarian overreach.
What you should have said was nothing.
Guy asks a question about what it will take to stop Genocide Joe from his Zionazi escapades
I give the only correct answer since bombing children’s hospitals full of already maimed kids doesn’t seem to cross a red line for Biden
If anyone is still wondering why Hamas and other resistance factions are fighting, this is what happens when the IDF wins.
Fuck Hamas. They are not “resisting”, they killed innocent civilians, women and children, and don’t give a flying fuck about the Palestinian civilians either (cf Moussa Abu Marzouk’s declaration that they are not responsible for defending the civilians in Gaza). They are a creation of the Israeli apartheid regime’s own making when they were hoping to destroy the credibility of the PA, to perpetuate their colonialist narrative. Hamas and the Israeli apartheid are two sides of the same brutal, inhuman coin. Fuck Hamas as much as the Likud and the ultranationalist Israeli right to the seventh pit of hell.
on the radio I heard two scholars discussing recent polls that reveal a surprisingly strong level of support for Hamas among gazans even now, despite the level of backlash that has resulted. when asked why, they said that Palestinians have long given up any hope that negotiations could achieve their goal of freedom and independence. they said that since negotiating has clearly failed for decades, Palestinians feel that the only remaining option Israel has left them is aggression and violence. and Hamas is the leadership that is willing to resort to violence.
while I certainly feel awful about any innocent Israelis getting caught up in the original attack, I can’t help but feel like Israel has done this to themselves. they have caged an entire group like wild animals for decades and somehow have the audacity to blame them for lashing out.
but let’s be honest here. we have all heard these points and most of us have already made up our minds about it.
on the radio I heard two scholars discussing recent polls that reveal a surprisingly strong level of support for Hamas among gazans even now, despite the level of backlash that has resulted
That’s what trauma does to you. Initially, support for Hamas had dwindled before October 7th, but after you literally drop bombs and bombs on people until they have to carry whatever is left of their children in blankets and plastic bags, well…
It’s hard to not let your emotions take over, but Hamas only exists because of the hatred of Israel.
Hamas exists because Israel doesn’t want Palestines to exist.
Terrorist organisation typically don’t continue to exist for extended periods of time without external assistance.
This is silly, not mentioning Iran as the actual people training and funding Hamas is either very deceptive or evidence you have no idea about anything happening in the middle East.
Also acting like Hamas are the only terrorist organisation in the middle East and a total novelty is absolutely absurd, when people call them freedom fighters without any reference to what they’re actually saying they’re fighting for is again totally deceptive or from a total lack of understanding - they don’t want freedom they want a theocratic dictatorship and death to all non Muslims.
That’s not too say everything Israel have done of good or moral but painting Hamas as innocent people just fighting for their freedom is laughable
Oh blah blah blah, this whole situation is alot simpler that Israeli defence Muppets like.
Israel is NOT a poor developing nation. Their military is on par with the UK. Their economy is doing fantastic. Quality of life in Israel is growing.
Israel wether you like it or not are always going to be the bad guys in the situation simply because they should know better. They have been taunting, attacking and murdering Palestinians for 70 years. The only countries other than Israel that are to blame are the US and the UK.
So being successful when everyone is trying to kill you makes them bad but rich countries like Iran failing repeatedly to complete the genocides they fund makes them loveable roagues who can do no wrong?
You’ll excuse me if I don’t subscribe to your philosophy of life.
No, it’s when you keep trying to slaughter Palestinians for colonial and racist reasons and succeeding at it continuously.
Israel is a country where Palestinians queue in cages and are strip searched only to be humiliated.
Fuck Israel today and every day until it stops what it’s doing.
Because you’re acting like it’s an army Vs an army, it’s not it’s an army Vs civilians
That’s what I said:
They are a creation of the Israeli apartheid regime’s own making when they were hoping to destroy the credibility of the PA, to perpetuate their colonialist narrative. Hamas and the Israeli apartheid are two sides of the same brutal, inhuman coin.
Bastards killing civilians one direction. Bastards killing civilians in the other direction.
If the bastards could fucking kill the other bastards and not involve civilians, that’d be pretty swell. If the IDF and Hamas actually fight each other and no civilians are hurt, everyone wins.
For fucks sake, Hamas is not a “resistance faction” and pretty much nothing was happening until they decided to poke the bear. They’re a bunch of worthless shitstains who don’t give two shits about the welfare of Palestinians.
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What do you think Israel should’ve done after Hamas killed over a thousand people?
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That seems like a very unlikely response, doubt any country would accept anything right after an attack like that.
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And I replied to your answer
And that’s why terrorist groups work versus modern states. They can count on disproportionate response. Hamas support was lower before Oct 7 but thanks to Israel liquidation of 20k people, now they have staunch support.
Does that involve all Jewish people leaving Israel or are you talking about the two state solution which Israel has repeatedly tried to work towards and both the plo and now Hamas reject on principle?
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When IDF wins? They could have done this years ago with Hamas started their raine of terror over Israel following Israel trying to do a good will gesture in Gaza. Instead Israel agreed to ceasefire after ceasfire that Hamas continously broke with thousands of rockets fired at civilians. This last massacre by Hamas was simply the straw that broke the camel’s back.
You know why Hamas are fighting? Because their goal is to murder every jew they can. They don’t want peace, they want blood.
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Was Native American raids on “Settlements” terrorism? Was Nat Turner’s rebellion terrorism?
Hamas is evil and the acts they have done are evil. But they weren’t created in a vacuum. Peace and a one or two state solution needs to be agreed apone by all with a right to self determination for the cycle of evil to stop.
Do you like this group of people? If yes, freedom fighters; if not, terrorists
Do you like this state? If yes, government; if not, regime.
I don’t like Hamas. They are nothing more than bigoted murderers. But they are created from a system of hate. This isn’t an argument of viewpoint. It’s just facts
What’s bigoted about them? They want to kill their oppressors they don’t care about race or religion.
“They don’t care about religion” must be the single most misinformed take I’ve heard on this subject. Hamas is an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood. They’re Islamists. What’s next, “critical support for ISIS”?
There’s a church in Gaza full of CHRISTIANS that was shot by who again two days ago? Was it Hamas? Oh no it was the IDF!
Because Hamas fights against oppressive Nazis not people of a different religion.
Native American militias didn’t brutalise Native Americans, much unlike Hamas does to Palestinians.
This is simply not true. Plenty of natives fought against other natives, whether independently, or with US troops, or for bounties.
Those were generally clashes between different tribes. Hamas is doing internal political oppression, brutalising political opponents etc.
Uhhhhhh one there was definitely infighting amongst the various tribes. Even during colonial expansion. Two Hamas is doing exactly what the IDF and Israelis government pays them to do.
Uhhhhhh one there was definitely infighting amongst the various tribes.
Irrelevant because Gaza is not different tribes, thus I ignored it. But I bet you felt smart typing that.
Two Hamas is doing exactly what the IDF and Israelis government pays them to do.
Quite an edgelord take but yes they’re oppressing Palestinians, and killed a lot of Israeli leftists, hippie Kibbutz type people actually helping people in Gaza, in their attacks, Kahanites certainly don’t mind that. I don’t think Israel was planning on Hamas having a shot at the Israeli-Saudi rapprochement, though.
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Is it possible for you to argue without analogies? They’re never a 1:1 representation of the situation at hand. All they do is serve to distract from the conversation by making people debate the accuracy of the analogy.
I bet you’d call the Viet Cong terrorists during the Vietnam war too lol.
This is similar to that in some regards too; similar guerilla tactics, and they’re also fighting to drive away an occupying force and reunify their country.
Their attack on Oct 7 was brutal, but it’s nothing compared to the shit Israel has been repeatedly doing for the last half century.
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is this the new line coming out from Israel? It’s not very good is it?
You pretty much have to be braindead to believe any of the propaganda coming out of Israel. Much if it doesn’t make any sense.
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No, this is what happens when you give them an excuse.
There is never an excuse for blatant warcrimes.
First of all, Hamas is a terrorist organization and I fully support Israel in removing it. It definitely is not a resistance group.
However, Israel has to change the way they approach the problem. Especially limiting shenanigans like this one and using stupid bombs.
Executions ≠ shenanigans. Are you fucking kidding?
Edit: typo
Dang, so the IDF gets your blessing even though they’re killing 10x as many civilians as a terrorist organization?
Even though they’re killing more civilians than Russia?
Were you replying to a different post or something?
However, Israel has to change the way they approach the problem. Especially limiting shenanigans like this one and using stupid bombs.
Wow it’s like you completely and utterly ignored his second paragraph entirely.
Those darn Israelis and their ethnic cleansing shenanigans.
Zionism is a mental illness at this point.
Based on your comment, can I ask what would be your solution the whole Palestine-Israel conflict?
Trials in the Hague followed by imprisonment of all those guilty of war crimes. At this point that Includes most IDF members, their leaders, and the government.
Actually bring consequences to bear and let other Israelis know that this isn’t acceptable. Israel also needs to be cut off from the teat of the American military industrial complex.
Same standards for Hamas, but that’s a much smaller number.
Any further sabre rattling is met with quick and strong sanctions.
Basically the UN needs to do it’s job, but that needs America not to veto.
Same standards for Hamas, but that’s a much smaller number.
Any further sabre rattling is met with quick and strong sanctions.
Explain to me how that works with Hamas, because I don’t think they give a fuck about either of those things. More troops on the ground?
Probably needs a UN peace keeping force.
…but Hamas is also a political entity and the government of Palestine. Sanctions would matter if Gaza wasn’t already blockaded by Israel.
A bi national state modelled on the EU. Palestinian state delineated by the 1967 borders coexisting with the Jewish state. Single market and freedom of movement for all citizens whether Israeli or Palestinian. That way settlers don’t have to be removed and Palestinians can work in the cities as they did before Oslo.
That’s actually reasonable. Pretty much I would like to see the same option
I’m not the person you’re talking to but as far as i can see the only way to go is one state solution.
Help me out here, because I don’t see that how that’s supposed to work with the whole “killing a bunch of each other” thing going on.
The constant attacks against Israel and it’s increasing isolation only probs Zionists right. Jews can only trust themselves for their own defense and need a state for that (that’s what Zionism is). People like you feed Zionism everyday.
You’re conflating Jews with an extremist ideology that can only seem to exist through apartheid.
Ones terrorist group is another’s resistance heroes. Which is which very much depends on the side you’re sitting at.
Hamas is indeed a terror group and should be removed but it’s hard not to see your bias. In sheer numbers, the IDF has killed multiples of what Hamas killed, in cruelty they’re really the same, and Hamas has the “excuse” of 70 years or so of oppression, murder, theft, etc by the Israeli side, the IDF doesn’t have that excuse.
The IDF is a terrorist organisation too and the only difference is that the IDF is state sanctioned and managed, whereas Hamas is not.
You, however, call what is starting to look like a genocide “shenanigans” that should be better managed whereas you outright call Hamas a terrorist group. Bias much?
Hey don’t dare to call Hamas as cruel as the IDF. They don’t torture their hostages nor shoot children. Nor do they try to kill people from other religions such as Christians living in Gaza nor do they try to steal other people’s land.
They resist a genocidal Nazi regime and sometimes don’t do it the neatest way but from their position of fighting against their oppressors they hold pretty high moral standards.
Hamas is infinitely humane than the IDF.
Was Native American raids on “Settlements” terrorism? Was Nat Turner’s rebellion terrorism?
Hamas is evil and the acts they have done are evil. But they weren’t created in a vacuum. Peace and a one or two state solution needs to be agreed apone by all with a right to self determination for the cycle of evil to stop.
It’s time to put in a UN peacekeeping force and a transitional government for a single state solution. Israel has beyond lost it’s moral high ground and should be treated like any other colonial remnant in the post colonial world.
You can’t kill a terrorist group. The US spent the last 20 years proving that. You can only defend yourself and reform people/institutions to invalidate the ideology.
All israel would need to do for Hamas to die out is not commit genocide or ethnically cleanse Palestinians and occupy their land.
But people here forget that that’s literally what israel is about.
When Hamas attacked I commented Israel would lash out with it’s usual fervor, making sure that any Palestinians that didn’t support Hamas wouldn’t have a choice. And that the US world would back Israel, providing more ammunition to the Muslim extremists in the middle east to want to continue to fight the US. And Israel working at that time to a potential deal actually worked out with Saudi Arabia would get smashed. Hamas played the world like a fucking fiddle and literally everyone danced along with the tune.
Israel has been doing that for 70 years
I’m glad somebody else sees it, too. The Oct. 7th attack doesn’t make any sense, except to provoke Israel to overreact and draw other groups and countries into the fight. For fuck’s sake, Osama bin Laden straight-up explained this strategy to the world after the 9/11 attacks.
Shenanigans are things you can film with Yakkity Sax as background music. Boots Randolph doesn’t provide the soundtrack to genocide.
You can’t use that word!!! The Big Brains™ will tell you that unless Israel is targeting every single Palestinian on earth then it’s not genocide!
/Wrist
Get fucked shitbag
Haha murdering civilians is good!
Israel seems to think so
Bad Israel and their shenanigans genocide
Bad Israel and their shenanigans genocide
You mean like how Israel should stop supporting terrorists like Hamas then using them as an excuse to commit genocide?
Of course, Israel supporting Hamas was a dirty move and it was one of Israel biggest mistakes. There is no way to excuse that.
You really don’t know what you’re talking about though, this is an often repeated talking point which comes from pretty much nothing, do you have any evidence for it or did you half read a headline in a meme post without realising the argument being made is ‘by allowing aid into Gaza it’s proping up Hamas’ because that’s where that ‘funding Hamas’ line actually comes from.
Israel don’t let enough aid through and they’re the bad guys, they let aid through and they’re the bad guys - they don’t have a cease fire and they’re the bad guys, or they have a cease fire and fail to totally remove Hamas so again they’re the bad guys…
Iran funds Hamas and sturs up trouble as a way of maintaining support at home and due to their fanatical religious ideals -that bit isn’t even sightly complicated, you don’t need conspiracy theories
No sorry you’re right, starve and murder all Palestinians that will solve the problem.
That’s clearly not what I’m saying, I’m saying that supplying aid to Palestine is not the same as proping up Hamas so blaming Israel for their existence is absurd
Jump off a building please.
I know you would love it but not this time, sorry ;)
They are are a resistance group, but that’s not really imoortant: I agree that Israel is justified in getting rid of them. What isn’t justified is almost everything they’ve done to achieve that aim.
They have nothing in common with a resistance group. They are just brutal terrorists who have been terrible both to Israel and Gaza, as well. Just look at how much money were they getting and see how it ended.
Israel has done war crimes, so it’s logical to condemn them for these actions. I believe they should have kept the approach from the beginning when they were precisely targeting the most dangerous buildings because Hamas was still a threat.
Exactly like the IRA which Britain called terrorists and many others called resistance fighters. It’s a matter of perspective.
If someone’s perspective is that Hamas are resistance fighters, then their perspective is just wrong.
Hamas have been leading Gaza for 18 years. They have done nothing good in that time. Whole Gaza is impoverished, conditions are terrible even when IDF don’t attack. In addition, Hamas leaders have share net worth of 11 billion US dollars and I am not even talking about how much money they get. Whilst leaders are extremely rich, their population is starving and is completely dependent on a country they are in a war with.
Apart from that, they have also been terrible to Israel because they launched multiple attacks against them.
So no, Hamas definitely are not freedom fighters but terrorists.
Lol. Just restating your assertion doesn’t make it true. The head of the Turkish state declared that Hamas are resistance fighters. Hamas are resistance fighters by name and are considered so by many in the middle east. The UNs Palestinian expert compared Hamas to the French resistance. You having really big feelings about the situation doesn’t change the facts - it’s ALWAYS the case that one person’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Stomp your feet if it makes you feel better but the world will go on regardless
I definitely don’t have big feelings about this situation. I am just amazed by someone’s positions.
By your logic, we can fully justify that Hitler was a freedom fighter because the person who supports the Nazi dictator has just a different perspective. Facts, however, tell otherwise.
When there is given a substantial proof about something (whether it is Hamas being a terrorist group or about the fact that the Earth is round), people who oppose are just wrong (if they don’t provide a proof which makes “fact” incorrect). It’s dead simple.
When you come to a teacher with incorrectly solved equation, it won’t be you having a different perspective about mathematics than everyone else in the world, you will be just wrong.
Just like Erdogan is wrong right now. But I am not really surprised by that because he, just like Hamas, would love to see ME without Israel at all.
Israel is worse than Russia, at least going by the numbers.
Israel has killed more civilians in 2 months than Russia has killed in 2 years.
To be fair though, the Russian army is a joke, and say what you want about the IDF, they’re good at their job. Their job is to mostly murder innocent civilians, and they’re quite good at that, much more efficient than the Russian army
Well they’ve been trained well
Yeah, but that’s what we know of. It’s suspected that there’s a record breaking (for modern Europe) mass grave outside Mariupol. I doubt the numbers will get as high as the IDFs, but we can’t get any independent journalists or investigators past Russia’s front line from my understanding.
Also, like the other guy said, that fight is a bad professional army vs a better smaller professional army.
The IDF vs Hamas is an okay but cruel professional army against a relatively bad terrorist organization.
“Okay but cruel” seems like a weird way to say bad
Weird way to say “war criminals”
I think he means their performance in combat, going by the way he spoke of Ukraine/Russia in the comment.
The Russians are far more Humane than the IDF.
Yeah, I wasn’t sure how to phrase it. Well trained but bad is a better phrasing I suppose. I find it hard to use the word “bad” when both sides are “bad” idk. I get where both sides come from in the fight 🤷♂️
“Okay” means they are not as cool as they think. A good professional army would wipe its arse with them. Naturally Hamas is not that, nor anything threatening them.
The IDF vs Hamas is an okay but cruel professional army against a relatively bad terrorist organization.
IDF was literally created by combining terrorist organizations, Haganah and Irgun being the big ones. So, unless the militant wing of Hamas is the cruel, professional Army, it’s terrorists vs. terrorists.
This opinion makes no sense to me. The US Army was also formed during a terrorist action, so was the Russian red army. We wouldn’t have called the Russian red army in WW2 a terrorist organization, and we certainly wouldn’t call the US military a terrorist organization. We could call them cruel or bad or whatever based on personal opinions, but we wouldn’t call them terrorist organizations.
For a more extreme example, the Nazi military was far far worse than Hamas or the IDF and I still would call them a professional military. They were still state sanctioned, trained to a specific common standard, paid a wage, internationally recognized as a military force, etc. etc.
Mariupol
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
9000 killed 17000 injured in Ukraine in total. Sources are usually ~1000 above or below this number.
Israel killed more civilian in one month than Russia did since the start of their invasion.
Israel has already killed twice as many civilians now as Russia has in Ukraine.
Israel is wayyyy worse than Russia. The israelis are actual Nazis but Jewish.
Russia says “special military operation” instead of “war”.
Israel says “war” instead of “Genocide”.
Oh, i was expecting another cero after the flatenning of the city… thanks
A witness told the Euro-Med monitor, “Thirteen persons were shot dead and several more were critically injured. The Israeli soldiers later threw shells at the women, who were being held in one of the rooms.” Euro-Med Monitor also recorded a rise in field executions following reports of attacks on Israeli military vehicles by Palestinian factions. This suggests that the crimes being reported are part of Israel’s unlawful retaliatory policy against Palestinian civilians, which is in violation of international humanitarian law.
Last month when Hamas terrorists were alleged to be doing the same, according to IDF, American diplomats were pressuring other countries to stop crying fro human rights and just condemn Hamas.
Can we start condemning IDF as a terrorist and genocider organization under control of a rogue government lead by a tyrant now? Just a little bit, please? We will condemn Hamas again, too, if it matters.
We will condemn Hamas again, too, if it matters.
Spoiler: it never mattered.
“Those are Self defence mass executions you fucking antisemite” - Israel probably.
- And subsequently the US
Coward yanks
The UN added, “While in control of the building and the civilians sheltering there, the IDF allegedly separated the men from the women and children, and then shot and killed at least 11 of the men, mostly aged in their late 20’s and early 30’s, in front of their family members.” The UN continued, “The IDF then allegedly ordered the women and children into a room, and either shot at them or threw a grenade into the room, reportedly seriously injuring some of them, including an infant and a child. OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awda building.”
Funny, how you alter the source to make it seem more clear than it is. So here is the part you altered, as reported by the OHCHR:
‘OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification.’
Just so you’re clear, the person you replied to directly quoted the article word for word
The articles miss quoted then, and should therefore should be considered heavily biased.
Cool. But you went full tilt accusation at that guy. Like FULL tilt. Just trying to throw some humble your way.
Maybe he should double check if the source he quotes is trustworthy. BTW: he hasn’t corrected his made-up quote.
There was no made-up quote. The quote was from the article, which left the end off a sentence, saying that the circumstances are under investigation, although the killings have been confirmed. So we have survivors accusing the IDF of slaughtering these people and we have the bodies, but it has not definitively been proven that the people were killed in the way the survivors claim. People can make of that what they will. I’m not trying to twist anything.
Here is the report (PDF):
The correct way to to cite it would be: ‘OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awdabuilding […].’
Its simply wrong to not do it. Especially cutting of the sentence at a ‘,’.
And the last time a crime against humanity was still under investigation – where it was obvious that a rocket hit a hospital, but the exact circumstances where still unclear – it was later confirmed that Hamas hit the hospital.
although the details and circumstances of the killings
Sorry but please read this again. The killings are confirmed, the exact details are under investigation. We have several witnesses attesting to the crimes and a pile of bodies riddled with IDF bullets. The killings are confirmed.
Also when you write articles, you can’t include every detail for brevity. They provided the direct link to the report so you are able to read it yourself.
Killings are confirmed, but no one knows why and how.
No one? “No one” except for the survivors of it.
And the killers, obviously. Both parties directly involved, so their recountings have to be investigated.
So not no one.
When the culture and the legal system that is supposed to punish illegal activity like this, fails to do its job, the message to each individual is clear if not codified.
Behave as you want, because your leadership controls the information coming out to the wider world. Journalists are intimidated and killed.
If you are discovered, you will be quietly reassigned but not actually disciplined. Protests from the UN or other nations are dismissed using various tired phrases or tactics.
If you actually go to trial, the state will bow to pressure from the public and government officials and not sufficiently punish you for even crimes like murder. 18 months for a summary execution that was clearly premeditated and filmed. It doesn’t matter if the prosecution proves mens rea or that you were filmed loading a weapon first before slow walking over to your victim. You will get a downgraded charge to manslaughter and the broad public will push for your immediate release.
My first reaction was just “what the fuck”. I still can’t believe what I’m reading, although I probably should have. I thought the IDF was better than a mass execution of civilians, but apparently not. They really want that Nazi comparison.
They genocide because they know any criticism can be shut down immediately and unequivocally with screeches of antisemitism.
“You think wiping Palestinians off the planet is bad? Clearly you want to wipe out the Jews!”
It really is that simple.
Does not surprise me. A military force that stoops so low that they kill white flag wielding civilians in cold blood has already reached rock bottom.
The actual report from the United Nations.
It just says allegations, and it calls on the IDF to investigate.
Of course the IDF should investigate itself. I’m sure they are completely unbiased.
Clearly you’re right. But the UN report did not say what the article said it said. Which means it’s biased reporting.
The article prefaces every item with the word “alleged” or “alleges”, just like the report. How is this biased?
Because that word is not in the title
What are you expecting from “World Socialist Website”? Fact-based reporting? I don’t think so.
For a site calling itself “socialist”, it sure is scared of unabashedly calling out an apartheid ethnostate.
It really isn’t, look at the other articles on that site
I would like the articles referenced here in this community to be fact-based, and I would like our discussion to be based on reality. The situation is bad enough as it is without having to make things up
While I see what you mean by that, is the title being “biased” equal to the article being biased? Seems like all doubts are resolved upon reading the first paragraph.
What? The article says exactly what the report says. ‘Allege’ is legal shorthand for ‘we say this is true’
The title does not say allege. The title says something very different
No, the title says precisely the same thing. To ‘report’ something to be true is the same as to ‘allege’ something to be true.
To report something is to make a finding. You may have an interesting definition of report, but the common usage is about findings. The UN did not make a finding that Israel committed a mass killing. The implication of the title is the UN made a determination which it did not do.
The UN is calling on Israel to investigate an allegation but it did not make a finding.
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/report
- To return or present as the result of an examination or consideration of any matter officially referred.
I feel like this is quite pedantic.
I think we’ve moved out of ‘not understanding’ and into the realm of ‘you don’t want to believe and you also don’t want others to’ territory.
Which would be fine if you were more honest about it. Have a nice day.
We investigated ourselves and found we did nothing wrong
When OHCHR drops a report like this it means they consider the allegations to be credible. It’s the same level as the news calling someone an alleged murderer after the guy killed someone on national TV. The report in this case is based on witness statements and an investigation done by a human rights NGO out of Europe.
Thanks for sharing
Hamas is shit for putting terror and attacking Israel above taking care of their own civilians. Israel is shit for mass-execution of innocent civilians.
They’re both shit, but we all know this will only end with Israel exterminating an entire population, which is even shittier.
The reason Hamas is in existence is because their peoples’ homes being taken and the Palestinians being killed constantly, for years. What would you do if your nation has lived in their land for ages, and a people came and took your family homeland and killed your family, and took neighborhoods and whole swaths of areas, then penned you up so that you couldn’t exit or enter your country without their permission…don’t you think you’d rise up with some other warriors to do something, anything? That’s what Hamas is. It is not a terrorist organization to go out and cause terror and trouble. It is the fighting representative of a beaten people.
It is not a terrorist organization to go out and cause terror and trouble.
Did you not notice the events that started this recent shit? Hamas certainly engages in terrorism, as does the IDF.
There’s an old adage that one man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.
Allowing a label to dictate your view of the events is naive at best.
I always say “if you look at it from the current government point of view, Luke Skywalker was just a terrorist.”
Darth Vader blowing up Alderaan with the Death Star was justified self defense.
That’s an unusual way to spell Gaza.
Uh, it’s a nice saying, but it’s not really that true. There are some defining differences in terrorists and fighting a war
Anyone or government can call an individual or group “terrorists.” To the British, American revolutionaries were terrorists. Every movie you’ve seen where the hero fights back against an evil government is a terrorist. Jason Bourne is a terrorist.
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Did you not notice the giant wall around Gaza and the starvation and israeli bombing of their infrastructure before October the 7th?
Are you gonna call the Ukrainians terrorists too for blowing up the train track that connects Russia to China?
Good analogy.
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but we all know this will only end with Israel exterminating an entire population,
It’s so goddamn hilarious that because of history and The Holocaust we aren’t allowed to bring up how deliciously ironic it is that a group of people that were rounded up for extermination are summarily rounding up a group of people for extermination.
I can’t wait to see how this plays out in history.
Who’s not allowed to bring it up? I’ll say it all day. I give no fucks that Israel doesn’t like it, fuck them.
Keep in mind the Holocaust was all Jews, and Israel here in no way represents all Jews, as much as they’d like to.
It fits in perfectly with history unfortunately. Members of group A inflict horror on members of group B. Some time passes, and some members of group B choose to inflict horror on group C and/or group A.
It’s all just radical subsets of the population, who would love nothing more than to represent their whole group.
I would just like to point out that the Holocaust was not JUST Jews. Other people were persecuted as well (such as LGBTQ+ peeps)
Disabled people and political dissidents too. But LGBTQ+ people is especially apt to point out in this day and age.
And black people.
The Nazi campaign was mostly focused on Jews because they were the biggest and easiest to target minority but the Nazi’s killed everyone that wasn’t from “their group of people” and tried to replace that population with their own (expanding the Lebensraum)
Pretty much. If you weren’t white and straight and a sycophant, you were on the chopping block. Normally women would probably be too, except they wanted that to have more Aryan babies 🤮
The Roma (aka Gipsies).
Everybody forgets them, strangelly.
I noticed that the holocaust page on Wikipedia conveniently forgets to state the other non-Jewish victims, then I realized that the Holocaust with a capital H only includes Jewish victims according to Wikipedia itself:
The term Holocaust is sometimes used to refer to the persecution of other groups that the Nazis targeted,[4][6] especially those targeted on a biological basis, in particular the Roma and Sinti, as well as Soviet prisoners of war and Polish and Soviet civilians.[7][8][9] All of these groups, however, were targeted for different reasons.[10] By the 1970s, the adjective Jewish was dropped as redundant and Holocaust, now capitalized, became the default term for the destruction of European Jews.[11] The Hebrew word Shoah (“catastrophic destruction”) exclusively refers to Jewish victims.[5][6][7] The perpetrators used the phrase “Final Solution” as a euphemism for their genocide of Jews.[12]
I don’t really know what to think of this.
Apparently some don’t like to include LGBTQ, the disabled, and non-Jews under the term “Holocaust” despite shit like this:
“All Poles will disappear from the world,” Heinrich Himmler said, It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles.”
If anyone is well versed in genocide studies and history, please enlighten us!
Thanks for remembering.
Isreal is nothing but a continuation of the holocaust. The mass migration of jews from their nation of origin to a colony is genocide from all the European nations and America who supported and funded its creation. It was final solution part 2. Not even an original one, the nazis had the Same idea first for Madagascar
That’s ahistorical and makes no sense. So, the UN created Israel to genocide the Jews?
Don’t agree with the comment you replied to, but I guess they meant “created Israel to get rid of the Jews in Europe”
Correct. Thank you for the positive interpretation. I can offer sources if you like.
It doesn’t hurt to add sources in any case. I know that UN created the state but I doubt anyone documented the reason for doing that especially such one
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Yeah, people should’ve figure out by now that in dimensions of their murdering, the disparity of strength (and hence of responsability in their use) and the moral standards expected from the dictatorial resistance movement of a long occupied land vs those of a supposedly Democratic nation (and Israel has long leveraged their image as Western-style Democracy all the while the place turns out to - surprise surprise - culturally be yet another of the racist theocracies so common in the region), Hamas is to Israel as a flea is to a rabid dog.
Everytime anybody goes “yeah, but Hamas” they’re doing the propaganda game for Israel.
We’re way beyond a proportionate response by this point and into the style of “payback” the Nazis did in France when after being attacked by the Resistance Française they would go to a French village and chose and kill 10 people for each German the Resistance had killed.
But it is a both sides situation. Both sides have the same goal. Externinating the other. One side is just much more powerful.
Yes I’m sure all those dead little girls just wanted to exterminate the Jews.
But the dead Israeli babies DO want to exterminate the Palestinians? What a weird point you’re trying to make.
Yeah you could make the same sarcastic remark that way too
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It’s overall an awful situation, there isn’t any “both sides” because both sides are shit and would happily genocide one-another. One side just happens to have the means to actually carry out that genocide, making them especially more shit.
What’s the morally correct thing to do: Am I supposed to put a Gaza flag on my social medias and gush about how Israel is terrorizing and destroying them and say that I stand by Hamas? I already shit on Israel because of their genocide. However, Hamas would (once again) do the same exact thing if given the chance.
Specifically picking a side is stupid because if Hamas could, they’d do the exact same thing.
It really muddles the reality of what is happening.
Why not? It’s the one fundamental differences when comparing this conflict with the Nazi extermination of jews (and others).
The jews didn’t massacre German civilians before their attempted annihilation.
It’s not much of a difference, in the entire score of things, but both Hamas and the idf have blood on their hands. Neither have done things benificial to the Palestinian people. The October attack was a strategic mistake of the highest order.
At the time support for the Netanyahu regime was falling, people were demonstrating. They had literally nothing to gain. They actually played right into bibi’s hand.
Not that I approve of the Israeli reaction, it’s horrible and indeed a case study on the banality of evil. It is completely outside of all proportions. To say that only one side is to blame, is wrong. Without oct 7 this would never have happened. To deny that you would have to prove that it was a false flag attack.
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I do get the analogy of the Warsaw ghetto, I’ve used the same analogy before.
But the relationship between hamas and the Israeli governement is very curious. If say I’m not on the both sides kind of thing, but on the ‘one of three’. The Palestinian people are suffering under the war mongering of both hamas and the idf. Just like not one hundred procent of Israelis are behind the actions of the idf, most Palestinian people aren’t responsable for the actions of Hamas.
It’s way more complicated than the binary issue you lot try to make it off it and frankly that is tiring and obtuse.
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I’m not disputing that that’s the case. But simplifying a conflict that is almost a hundred years old into a binary blame model is silly.
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For me the problem with the “both sides” argument is that it misses the symmetry issue.
Oh and I would agree that the symmetry is way off. It’s only that the conflict is so old and complex that putting it down to a binary good/bad narrative is quite simplistic.
No one in their right mind would call both sides innocent either. The amount of guilt and the assymetry can be argued about. I tend to agree that the Palestinian people are suffering way more than anyone in that part of the world. It seems that neither hamas nor the IDF care about them at all.
Technically, Hamas aren’t Palestinian in origin to begin with, they’re from a group that once controlled Egypt and their power over Gaza Strip was maintained by the Israeli Government via various means including directly being funded by them and neighboring nations. So, it isn’t their people. The don’t give a fuck if Palestine faces genocide, never have.
[citation needed]
The Society of the Muslim Brothers first founded in Egypt in 1928 was able to establish in the neighboring nation in 1973 as Mujama al-Islamiya Islamic charity affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which later became Hamas in name in 1987. They also were the most prominent political group in Egypt from 1967 until 2013, when their president over Egypt was overthrown.
Hamas is from Suuni Islamist Egypt, for Suuni Islamist Egypt.
Yeah but that doesn’t support your claim.
My claim is that Hamas’ Origins were outside of Palestine, that Hamas doesn’t give a fuck about Palestinian Genocide. I gave you a concise uncontested timeline of their formation. Maybe you’re just too stupid to get it.
If that was your claim then you phrased it quite poorly. You said they aren’t Palestinian in origin, which is blatantly false. I reocmment you rephrase your original comment so that the rest of us stop misunderstanding you.
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Nah bro Hamas is an organization. From Egypt.
That’s like saying any socialist country is necessarily Prussian
The Society of Muslim Brothers who controlled Egypt in the late 60s formed a charity in Gaza Strip in 1973 called Mujama al-Islamiya Islamic who then became known as Hamas in 1987.
You’re an absolute idiot if you think those two organizations are completely unrelated.
No one said they are unrelated.
That’s like saying any socialist country is necessarily Prussian
So you legitimately think every socialist country is essentially directly caused by Prussians? That’s your take?
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If Greece sent radicalized people to the USA and created an explicitly radical Greek organization a few decades ago and somewhere inbetween they changed their name, then yes it would be exactly like that.
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And people upvoted like Lemmings
The only solution I see is to build a wall around the whole area and just waiting for the shooting to stop eventually.
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OHCHR has confirmed the killings at Al Awda building, although the details and circumstances of the killings are still under verification.
From the UN report cited.
Are organizations keeping track of those responsible for war crime trials? I would love to see a list of those responsible, from the lowest ranks to the highest.
I know of this one: https://www.commondreams.org/news/icc-israel
That’s to the unwavering diplomatic cover and military help of the US, it’s no surprise the far-right racists who are the elected government of Israel are turning the Gaza ghetto into a concentration camp, complete with mass executions.
I mean, even those who dispute them being actual Fascists, can hardly claim to be surprised that a racist ultra-nationalist government whose leader already tried to take over the Judiciary, engaged in an anti-insurgency operation in an occupied territory populated by people from a different etnicity who they call “human animals” and were they’ve already killed tens of thousands - more than 40% of which children - would end up doing mass executions. I mean, these are people who have more than once said they need a Final Solution for Gaza. The only surprising thing here is that they’re still using bullets for it rather than cheaper methods of bulk killing.
The entirelly predictable consequence of the US veto at the UN was exactly to embolden their favorite Fascists to be ever more Fascist, since it made clear to them that the US would always have their back no matter what and any “words of condemnation” by the US Administration were nothing more than hot air.
Make All Gaza Auschwitz hats still available.
“Make Auschwitz Happen Again”
That slogan requires new hats to be made.
You mean to say those hats exist in our material reality?
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You’re right. MAGA it is then.
I had only ever seen these before:
I think that there is more than enough justification for the Arab League to launch a retaliation at this point. I for my part would support it.
The Arab League is as divided as ever
Yep. The Arab league is a joke at this point, it has lost relevancy.
Instead of more slaughter, I’d like to see them provide land and assistance for a new Palestine in a safe place. Instead they won’t even take in refugees.
It would probably be safer for everyone involved for the Israelis to move away instead.
Palestinians should get to keep their land.
If someone broke into my house, I wouldn’t entertain moving out so as to reduce the risk of further violence.
Against a country with nukes?
If they’re afraid of attacking a country with nukes, they’ve already lost.
They’re mostly American puppet states such as Saudi and Egypt. Their government doesn’t care about anything but pocketing money. American puppet Sisi was just reelected in Egypt by arresting everyone running against him.
Insurgency groups are growing though since their governments doing nothing really pisses off the civilians. They’re not directly attacking israel but instead attack israeli or American targets close to them
Saudi has America, not the other way around. They knocked America’s towers and they sold them weapons and shook their hands.
No Osama went out of Saudi to Afghanistan to fight the Russians with a group of Saudi Jihad warriors under American support.
Then when Russia was defeated in Afghanistan, Palestine cried for help against the Israeli genocide so Osama turned against America which was (and is) massively supporting the Israeli genocide.
The previous Saudi ruler Faisal did turn against America for Palestine and turned off the oil. Then he subsequently was assassinated by his nephew which loved America and had an all American get up. Most likely a CIA intervention but no evidence for it.
Now we have MBS, the current Saudi Leader. Hevonly wants money and will do whatever will give him the most money. He will not wage any wars (for Palestine for example). And his morals change at a whim to whatever provides the most money. He’s basically Mr Crabs.
Wasn’t it the Saudi funded radicalist Islam sect that were behind the attacks?
The Bin Laden family is a rich Saudi family and Osama was just one member. They cannot arrest someone’s entire family for something that a random uncle did on his own
Radical Islam wasn’t behind the attacks. It was vengeance for America ruining many countries and stealing their oil. I’d suggest you read his letter. https://www.newsweek.com/osama-bin-laden-letter-america-transcript-full-1844662
The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq," bin Laden wrote. "This is why the American people cannot be innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.
(He did use the word Jews instead of Zionists sometimes which was completely wrong and anti semitic)
Just like 7 Oct, 9/11 didn’t just happen because someone picked up a Quran and disliked “freedom” as much as the American government likes people to believe so
The civilians of Saudi are Muslims but their government (the Saud family) are not that interested religious. They just wanna make bank selling oil. Problem is that if they go too much against the will of their population they risk a coup.
MBS still wants to recognize israel in order to make more oil money, but if he does so now without the Palestinians getting any rights back in return, his population (and worst case the military) will turn against him because he’s just a greedy POS without any morals. Last thing he wants is a coup.
Only group doing that are iran proxies or Hamas affiliated terrorists.
