I know so many people who adamantly stand by their use of it. I used to say it, too, but all it took was one person to point out to me that it was hurtful and I apologised and stopped no questions asked. I don’t get why it’s so hard to just have a little empathy.
i used to think it was okay for me to say as i’m disabled. what i noticed, though, is that my doing so 1) communicated to my abled peers that it’s okay for them to say as well & 2) made me appear as a pick-me; i was perceived as “one of the good ones.”
the r-slur has been causing a very visceral reaction in me for years & i will continue to report each & every instance of it.
That’s the problem I have when people of that slur use it. And worse, they act like it’s not a big deal. There’s offensive words I can use because of my skin tone that would absolutely get any non-colored person choked out.
But you nailed it. If I brush it off like it doesnt offend/isn’t a disgusting word, then I am giving permission to others that it’s okay to say.
It’s the same these days with the f-slur and cishet folks getting ostracised for using it, at least where I live. I agree, I’ll happily call myself one but never the r-slur. It just gives people a free pass.
I have a question about for you about this if you don’t mind. In certain mechanical situations the word is used to describe a delay added (for example in a car engine you may use this word to describe a certain timing adjustment).
Does the word in a context like that still cause that visceral reaction or does the context make it different - is it only when used to describe people that it hits that way?
I’m only asking this because it popped into my head the other day when I was reading my service book on my engine and ran across it.
It’s kinda similar to how people commonly used a shortened form of ‘transmission’ in the automotive industry but it became a slur for trans people - I feel like I haven’t heard that one in a while so I’m guessing it’s fallen out of use, but I was just always curious if the taint of people bullying with that word crossed over into other contexts.
there’s the initial sting, yeah, but it’ll subside once my brain remembers the context. when used in a bigoted way, the feeling sticks for a while.
That’s along the lines of what I expected. I’m always just curious how our brains work, so thank you.
I always try to find an alternative to the word regardless of the context because it’s not like it’s hard to do and I’d rather not cause that reaction in anyone if possible.
It sucks that we keep doing the same thing over and over as a society as this is not the first word ruined by being used in the exact same manner as a way to bully and harass and make fun of people.
You’d think some day we’d learn that we can actually teach people not to be shitty and we don’t have to accept this behavior from people at all.
deleted by creator
based and i adore people who are like you
it does tend to be a good litmus test for disempathy, sadly. obviously there are outliers, but if one can’t take a tiny correction to like 0.01% of their vocabulary, color me not surprised when that same person starts talking about the immigrant problem or women’s place in the home or something :(
My guy still thinks bigotry is caused by lack of empathy. It’s actually selective empathy that helps encourage bigots.
Selective presence of empathy is exactly equivalent to selective lack of empathy, which is a type of lack of empathy.
Except that literally everyone who has empathy does selective empathy, even if not intentionally. You also can’t really form an in-group and out-group mindset without empathy. Like if there was no empathy at all bigotry wouldn’t be nearly as big.
pedantic_irrelevant_nuance.jpg
Here’s the way I see it: to most people, that word is not linked to a disability. It’s just a word to describe bewilderment or exasperation at someone, something, some situation. It’s not intended to be hurtful.
I have a disability as well. I see about twenty percent of what normal people see. I’m pretty much blind without my contacts or glasses. I don’t get offended when someone uses terms like ‘short-sighted’ or when someone says ‘are you blind?’ to someone else. We also use seeing metaphors quite a lot if you pay attention to them. I’m not offended by it, because I know the language is not intended to offend me.
I’ve also worked with people who had actual mental disabilities. And trust me, most of them know damn well when something’s intended as an insult or when it’s just metaphorical use.
I hope that most people can look past it in the same way but unfortunately intent doesn’t change how hurtful some things can be. And it’s still language that serves to otherise a group of people. Just like the N and F words which have both declined heavily in use (at least since I’ve been alive).
The way I look at it is that my want to use certain words does not outweigh other people’s feelings. English is full of fun and interesting things to say, we can get a bit more creative than just using slurs.
I wish there was a category of words that conveyed the same strength as slurs, but weren’t offensive. Swears are the closest. Unfortunately I think any word that can be freely used like that will be used in exaggeration so much that it will be watered down.
deleted by creator
I’m vegan btw, lol
Blahaj.zone admin here. Let me make this simple and clear. I don’t care what specific word you use, if you are using intellectual disability or neurodivergence as an insult, you’re going to get moderated.
Genuinely curious if this applies to moron and idiot, since they have basically the same origin story.
Sounds like a yes
Sounds like a silence to me.
lemmy users will hear “i don’t care what word you use, don’t insult based on disability or neurodivergence” and say “sounds like silence to me, too bad the mods won’t answer my questions of if certain words are allowed”
🙄
“I don’t care what word you use”
I swear there is so much snark in this thread people forgot how to read. Yes it applies to moron and idiot. 😂😂
That seems dumb
Most Lemmy instances have a civility rule. It isn’t civil to insult people.
This was specifically about not allowing intelligence deficiency insults or whatever though.
thank you ada 🩷🩷🩷 sorry about this post i didn’t know it was going to get so awful
Just… don’t use anything one can’t control as an insult.
Yup. Goes for bodyshaming too.
If I call you “stupid,” “moronic,” or “intellectually bankrupt” you know what I’m saying. Getting offended by the specific wording of an ad hominem, while giving synonymous terms a pass, is truly some of the finest hair-splitting I have ever had the displeasure of seeing.
Imagine calling the difference between people who do stupid things and people who are born with diagnosed mental illnesses “splitting hairs”.
It’s very, very simple. In one case, you are attacking someone who is completely in control of their mental facilities. In the other, you are attacking people who are literally incapable of defending themselves, from birth. They are not synonymous. If you think that level of punching down is okay, then be as indignant and self-righteous about it as you want, but you deserve to be told.
Intellectually-disabled people were originally defined with words such as “morons” or “imbeciles”, which then became commonly used insults.
I don’t see anyone getting a ban anywhere for calling someone a “moron,” for any other reason than making an ad hominem. The thought is almost laughable.
So, we’re just going to pretend that language doesn’t evolve because it justifies your bias?
People didn’t put their foot down when the meaning of those words began to shift, and now they mean something entirely different. In our more socially and culturally aware culture, we as a people understand nuance and are generally educated enough to see what’s happening. We have by and large decided that it’s a bad thing to continue normalizing attacking the mentally disabled.
Fuck off with your pseudo-intellectual defense of toxic, dehumanizing culture. Words mean things. The things they mean can change. Those ones, in a less educated and accepting time, did. The ones we have now have not. Your attempt to dismiss that is genuinely hateful.
The push to get people to stop saying it Streisand Effected the word into a slur. There’s no reason it shouldn’t have just gone the way of “moron,” except people turning it into a bigger problem than it ever had any right being.
The entirety of your final paragraph reads like a guilt by association fallacy.
The push to get people to stop saying it Streisand Effected the word into a slur. There’s no reason it shouldn’t have just gone the way of "moron,
Sure. But it didn’t. And now it is a slur. And no matter how much you’d like to defend your version of the word, that isn’t what it means. Sitting in your own bubble and insisting on your own version of language history doesn’t change the meaning of the word to the evolving world.
seen it happen multiple times, hope this helps 👍
I’ll be sure to report every post and comment fitting these criteria and watch as nothing happens.
i hope you feel awed and inspired now that moderators have actually acted on those comments here despite your doubt 😅
You can be snarky with me if they’re still doing this a week later in other threads.
i’ll be snarky now; 196 mods are very respectful and consistent in my experience. burden of proof is on you.
Tell that to anyone in the aviation industry and you’ll get a chuckle and a couple of "bless your heart"s.
entirely different word and we both know it
Try telling that to a text filter or a moderator on a power trip. They won’t give a rat’s ass about “to retard” meaning “to reduce or hold back.” Even the linked article fails to make the semantic distinction when it calls for the elimination of the word.
If this comment disappears, it will have proven my point.
it’s giving 6th grade locker room 😂😂😂
“dude look i found a way to say it and dude it’s allowed because it’s about airplanes”
And a bitch is a female dog, I know. There’s a factor of intention, a.k.a mens rea, a.k.a guilty mind that separates right from wrong based on why a person does something. It’s this sort of inconvenient nuance that dealing with absolutes doesn’t allow.
and there’s a matter of intention to me blocking you, too. literally no one disagrees with you, not even me. i am not calling for an “absolute” anything
your sophomorisms are literally just being posted to give you an excuse to type le edgy words. and worst crime of all you’re not doing it even in a funny or thoughtful way, you are just being mean about it. take care and i hope to me is the most unkind you will be to anyone all day.
Would you use the term “bitch” when talking about dogs? Or just say female dog to avoid being misunderstood? It used to be used that way, but now you’re going to sound like an asshole if you use it.
Once people start using a technical term as a slur, it gets tainted by that additional meaning. You can’t forcefully separate the technical term from the slur. If you don’t want people to think you’re throwing around slurs, you need to find a new word to use.
Don’t blame the people hurt by the slurs, blame the assholes who misused the word so often that they fucked up its meaning.
I don’t think the SPECIAL OLYMPICS needs to make the semantic distinction between ableism and aviation (I WONDER WHICH ONE THEY WOULD TALK ABOUT)
The fact that this lame strawman argument has received so many upvotes is baffling. Who gives a fuck what the random moderator that you invented does?
i’m SAYING like 😭 😭
Yup. I was perma banned from /r/politics over on Reddit years ago for using this word in a way that had nothing to do with people.
It was used in a literal manner, with the definition of how I used it meaning “to delay or hold back in terms of progress, development, or accomplishment.”
I tried to appeal, and I was labeled “ableist”. It was the dumbest shit I’ve ever experienced on Reddit prior to the piggy ruining the platform.
Je suis en retard dans la discussion, mais tu as raison, les ordinateurs ne tiennent pas compte du contexte.
dot ml friends see this lol
I’m late to the discussion, but you’re right, computers don’t take context into account.
I’m removed to the discussion, but you’re right, computers don’t take context into account.
ur
█▀█ █▀▀ █▀▄▀█ █▀█ █░█ █▀▀ █▀▄ █▀▄ ██▄ █░▀░█ █▄█ ▀▄▀ ██▄ █▄▀
Any of those would match it?
It’s quite obvious that it’s very different to use it as a verb and as a noun to refer to someone.
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
It was offensive even way before that. I remember us not serving a customer at the fast food place where I worked because he used it around my co-worker whose brother had Downs Syndrome.
I’ve never really associated with people who use that word.
Lemmy seems to be pretty good about not using it, though. Reddit, on the other hand…
Edit: After reading this thread, I take it back. There are some straight up disgusting people in this community who really, really want to use the r-slur.
it absolutely was offensive way before that. from my understanding 2009 was the year there was a unified push to change things across the language though :)
also wow reddit was worse? i won’t lie i never saw it there in the past decade but perhaps i was browsing more wholesome subs than some
but yeah on lemmy it’s not an exaggeration to say i come across it (used as a slur, not in an aviation sense, children 🙄) almost hourly. in another thread i am getting dogpiled with downvotes for asking politely not to use it in a derogatory way.
Every time I’ve reported it on lemmy, I’ve seen it removed by mods, but I guess there are a lot of communities here I just don’t visit.
Reddit had a very popular sub with the r-slur in its name, and I saw it a lot on CTH (don’t ask me why I ever visited that sub – I ask myself, and I have no answer lol).
And yeah, Rosa’s Law was 2010, but even dating back to the 70s people were abandoning its use. I recall my brother having to write an essay about people with disabilities when he used it in school in the 90s (not that I approve of using writing as a punishment).
it does get left up by certain mods here 😭 part of the reason for posting this
in my individual non authoritative opinion OKBR gets grandfathered the pass
but only because it’s used in a purely non offensive contextnope it’s offensive, you are right. i think it gets grandfathered in because it has important memetic/cultural meaning. but it’s still obviously highly offensive and so should be treated with delicacy and respect.hereabouts though i’ll see like, a thread argument about cross stitching and boom, r-slur used as a derogatory. like come on kids this isn’t kindergarten lmao.
in my individual non authoritative opinion OKBR gets grandfathered the pass but only because it’s used in a purely non offensive context
Hard disagree here. It’s the very definition of it being used offensively.
You have a right to that, I probably need to do some self examination there.
That sub opened in 2017
Yeah, my mom used to work for an organization called ARC, which pointedly hasn’t been an acronym since the early '90s.
And NAACP is still around, even with a name that was offensive 40 years ago, because a) it’s clearly not intended to offend; and b) the name recognition is incredibly helpful: I hear NAACP, I think W.E.B. DuBois and Thurgood Marshall.
Removed by mod
It communicates “you aren’t disabled, you have no excuse for acting like it, start choosing to use the fully functional brain you have”.
look, if this doesn’t make you see how it’s a shitty thing to say, i don’t think anyone else can help you understand.
i appreciate how they admitted it out loud: “but how can i harrass people and call them unintelligent if the r-slur is unacceptable?”
what about dont call people unintelligent. hm?
What is wrong with calling people unintelligent when they are doing unintelligent things that are directly causing me problems (for example, people on their phones blowing through red lights?) If someone tries to change lanes into me and I say “are you blind? You almost hit me!” is that similarly bad?
yes haha
Removed by mod
By comparing people to these slurs, you enforce societal norms that indicate that the said group has less value in society.
Since humans are social creatures by nature, you are essentially dehumanizing an entire class/group of people because you can’t come up with something more clever to say.
To err is human, we all make mistakes, intelligence/sight/etc. has nothing to do with it.
Removed by mod
based
The main issue that seems to be the disconnect is simply that you are using the word as an insult.
Calling someone unintelligent is fine (I feel at least) but specifically using words that are associated with disabled people as an insult towards abled people is blatantly putting one group on top of the other.
The insult in that case cuts both ways. The person you are directly talking to is insulted because they are acting like a “lower group” and you’re also insulting the entire group by saying they are inherently lesser.
You can not use a group of people as an insult without inherently viewing that group as insult worthy.
correct
This really focuses on the darkest possible aspects of people. I think I finally get why I’m not offended by the same things folks like you are.
I hear someone use a word like this, and I think “they are using an obvious example they saw, and applying it here in a deliberately facetious manner”. You hear the same word, and you think “that person is deliberately denegrating an entire group of people.”
You’re not going to like my saying so, but neither approach is always right or wrong here. There are people that absolutely are doing what you think they are. What your stance doesn’t seem to accept, however, is that others are not.
You can live your life any way you wish, but I think people who think this way may want to take a step back, and maybe put their swords down. White Knights don’t always do well in a grey world.
I don’t agree with OP that you should never be allowed to call someone names… But I do think the r word is potentially hurtful to actually mentally disabled people, so I wouldn’t use it for that reason.
In general its better to use words that represent choices people make and not unchangable aspects. I wouldn’t use terms “black”, “retarded”, or “gay” as insults, for example. Someone below suggested “foolish” as a good example since it’s not an inherent trait but a behavior.
i don’t think you shouldn’t ever be allowed to call someone names, not sure where you got that lol. for the record i 100% agree with your comment :)
sorry if i come across any other way i just personally find it important to sass people who vehemently defend “muh rights” to use established slurs
Foolish seems like a useful word, probably could be substituted and keep the intended meaning intact.
Your submission in “lemmy user(ule)s: “this sign won’t stop me because i can’t read”” was removed for Using disability as an insult is not ok, end of story.
I’ve been called dyslexic before as a slur a few times. I laughed every time and explained that I am dyslexic.
Zero times have I ever, EVER cared that someone used this word like this. Why? Because they are human beings that saw symptoms and thought it was funny.
Is dyslexia funny? Yeah, sometimes. In the same way, there are some hilarious characters that are blind. Our differences don’t have to be something we’re constantly defensive about. Humor is a very human reaction to coming to terms with such things.
Some people just need to take a step back and realize it’s okay to inject these things into humor, IF you do it tactfully, and with a measure of compassion.
i’m glad you can find humor in it but it’s also important that you shouldn’t tell others when to not feel offended
which you are doing with the phrase “some people need to take a step back.” that’s a really unkind thing to say.
(edited for clarity because i misspoke 🙂)
I could not agree more! I hope you re-read what you just wrote.
Edit: Wow… that was a really dishonest edit you just made. You literally edited your comment so it looks like I’m conceding my position, and you didn’t even put “Edit” in there. I think we’re done here… if you’re doing things like this, then nobody on this platform should be conversing with you seriously.
I prefer to tell people they’re being foolish. Foolish is something we all do, and one can snap out of it.
I’ve come to use this more as well. There’s never a real need to insult someone’s intelligence, but there is often a need to point out when someone is acting like a fool.
Seems like a good word, I like that
Using a slur to insult someone, regardless of if they are a member of that group, shows that you view it as an inherently negative trait, and that people should be ashamed of being a part of, or associated with, the group.
nobody is going to arrest you for using the word, and many people will celebrate you using it. The problem is those people are mostly assholes. The word you should be thinking about is “audience”.
Look I usually only lurk because im too anxious but I have to say something.
Your logic is the exact logic my neo nazi family use. (not an exaggeration, I grew up around the klan)
“If they act like an N word, why cant I call them an N word, its not like im racist, i call stupid/criminal/bad whites N words too.”
So i think anyone who uses this logic to justify a slurs usage should take a moment for self reflection.
(This is coming from someone who is queer and will use queer slurs only in certain company, in private, where everyone involved is aware and into it. (and even then I get uncomfy, especially when im in a new group and I don’t know people and they start throwing words around.))
(Also to add I was one of those “slow” kids who has alot of history with the cruel things my family and others called me.
words do area-of-effect damage, friend.
if you use the r-slur around me, even if its not directed at me, it hurts, and it makes me feel less safe with you, because of the way that word has been used to specifically target me for hatred based on my neurotype. plus there’s the fact that you acknowledge it to be a mean word for disabled people, and if you’re using it as a weapon against non-disabled people, you’re really saying ‘haha, you’re like those disabled people, and that’s terrible.’ i hope you can see how this probably doesn’t feel so good to a lot of us?
I like area-of-effect damage as a framing device.
I agree completely with this. This campaign to make this word just as bad as the “n word” is absolutely ridiculous. I’ve brought this up with a lot of people, and I’ve yet to meet someone in real life who genuinely thinks this word should be censored in this manner.
Edit: This needs more context… please refer to my expansive explanation here: https://sh.itjust.works/comment/12210243
what annoys me is that no one cared about this until Sarah Palin made a big deal out of someone calling her that and she pretended to get offended for her baby with down syndrome as if it was targeted on them.
but I’m also ok with never saying it again. not a big loss who cares. at least we got a legendary Linus clip out of it.
no one cared until
literally misinformation. rosa’s law was passed in 2009, four years before the incident you cite.
that’s not what we’re talking about. as the original commenter said, using the r word to refer to any mentally challenged person was already a no-no. that law changed official use of the word, not the r word itself used as an insult.
law reflects society. just providing a timeline for things, the word as an insult was a problem starting well into the 90s so it’s absolutely absurd to blame it on sarah palin in 2013.
if you think people started saying r-word in the 70s you’re out of your mind
sorry *90s that was a typo
ok, but the r word was very much acceptable through the early 2000s. it was even casually used on tv.
That clip is so funny
How am I supposed to just stop using this word?? How else is the plane supposed to tell me to put thrust at idle during landing? This is ridiculous.
no hate to you but i do hate that this is one of the default responses the internet has chosen when discussing this language (twice now in this thread)
i guess it’s like a growing pains thing, but it strikes me as very middle schooler, kind of like bringing up that one word that means unwilling to share with others.
one is a noun/adjective, the other is a verb. entirely different words that simply have the same Latin root. one is used in a professional context in an industry nearly none of us are familiar with, the other i come across as a derogatory on this site pretty much hourly. please let’s grow up a bit about this.
(again no hate to you specifically commenter, it was a funny joke and i just want to call out the broader trend)
It probably gets annoying as a bystander, but I don’t have a lot of opportunities to bring aviation into the rest of my life. Especially in a way that’s mildly funny.
honestly happy for you lol i think both of our emotional investments are valid
This is a real convo I had with middle schoolers when I did a stint as a teacher.
“But teacher why I can’t I say SHITAKE? it’s a mushroom. And James is acting like a little SHITAKE head.”
literally multiple instances of this happening under this post
Removed by mod
This is rich coming from the crowd who throws a tantrum every time someone requests they stop saying a word
You know what else I’m upset about? There’s this insidious figure who has caused unimaginable grief and pain, hiding behind a facade of normalcy. He’s responsible for countless horrors, using his cunning and deceit to further his dark ambitions. His actions have shattered lives and spread fear like wildfire. Yeah, I’m talking about William Afton. If there’s one person who truly deserves all the anger and outrage, it’s definitely him.
It’s been so long, since last I’ve seen my son, lost to this monster, to the man behind the slaughter
Just don’t use it to refer to people and you’re golden. There are many slurs that are also legitimate scientific terms, like how fag(g)ot is a bundle of sticks, or how in physics you have the Advanced and the Retarded Green’s functions.
this is the way
fag(g)ot is a bundle of sticks
Fagot is also what a bassoon is called in Danish, Dutch, Spanish, German, Romanian, Bulgarian, Latvian, Slovak and Czech, for some reason lol.
Not sure about the pronunciation, though, even though the first of those is my native language 😄
Its fa-'got, fyi. Similar to the slur, but the second syllable is stressed, like the word for good. That is in your native language to be clear, I don’t know about the others.
Same in German
To be fair to Airbus,
-
They probably chose the language for that call-out way before 2009. Airplanes can live for thirty years, and type designs can keep going several decades longer
-
The designers were also likely to be French, but they selected English call-outs. This seems to me like a case where they picked a word that’s technically in the OED l, but is actually much more common in French.
I mean, if it’s a valid word for what they want to say, then I don’t really see a problem. It’s pronounced the same, but it’s a completely different word.
Same with a pork meatball or cigarette in the UK.
What’s the meatball called? Or is it the same as a cig?
What’s the meatball called?
Ron DeSantis
The longer version of what the cigarette’s called
Rhymes with maggot?
-
Tell airbus to use the proper term “intellectually disabled” instead
Airbus is Ableist!
deleted by creator
It’s just lazy. If you want to hurt someone’s feelings you need to do the work.
i miss old school r/murderedbywords
I asked a question about this after seeing it quite a bit here!
This is the argument I see to defend use of the word and I’ve never understood it. Where I am (west coast-ish of the US), the word is used very specifically to mean autistic. If you ask someone not to say retard, they say autistic instead. If you ask them not to say autistic, they say special education. If not that, slow. If not that, someone who takes the short bus. Unambiguously the people here use the r slur as a slur against autistic people. They use it as an insult towards allistic people to degrade them as lesser. Same as calling a straight person the f slur. Maybe it’s different in other parts of the country, but the r slur is absolutely used as a slur against autistic people where I am.
I’m sorry this happens where you live, that’s super messed up. Autism is particularly frustrating to see denigrated because it all too often comes down to social ineptitude (so far as the people who ostracize others go). Everyone’s brains work differently - this idea that anyone who breaks the mold should be cut down is incredibly frustrating and sad.
the constant reality is that hateful losers just want to be verbally disdainful and othering to the disabled, and they will do whatever they can to keep doing it even if it means changing their language
the model of the “euphemism treadmill,” while accurate, is just another tool spiteful people use to justify saying spiteful derogatives
Without a doubt, there are hateful, spiteful losers who not only use but take pleasure in using language with the specific intent of causing maximum harm.
In spite of this fact, there I think it’s worthwhile to call out exceptions exist - since a plan of attack has the best chance of success when the full context, the entire enemy, is known. The last person I heard use the word IRL is:
- kind and generous
- thoughtful, otherwise respectful, well mannered
- (a leftist pacifist vegan)
- friends with a wide, diverse cross section of humanity
But I know they grew up around the word and haven’t seen someone it’s hurt, so they used it like they’d use any other word - without intent to harm, just ignorantly.
I’d take tips on how best to counsel them if it comes up again. I think exploring their potential blindspot (no/few disabled friends?) would be part of my strategy. Thankfully they are not just some hateful piece of shit because it wouldn’t be worth my time talking at a wall if they were. They will at least be open to entertaining an argument about the potential impact of their words even in able-bodied/minded company. Thankful that’s the kind of person they are! And when we accurately assess people it gives us our best shot at righting our collective vocabulary.
yea the hateful and spiteful are the ones that push the bill on things.
for your friend, i have had this exact experience. i just went “hey friend, that word has some history that makes it hurtful to some people, just a heads up since the way you used it sounded like you maybe weren’t aware”
and it went over pretty well :) kind people rock
Good to hear :)
That reminds me I think it was a slip, cuz I mentioned it years ago and didn’t hear it for over a year - I’m fine to remind again if I need to! Thanks :)
South Park did a whole episode about this with “fag” nobody is using the word to insult actual homosexuals (except hateful bigots I suppose) just like nobody us using the word “retard” to slur the disabled. (again apart from the bigoted assholes) if I say something that offends someone, then they can tell me and I’ll apologize. But I don’t need someone policing my language just in case someone might be upset by a word.
Not only is the word fag used by a lot of people, because there are a lot of hateful bigots out there, but even when you don’t mean the nasty implications, it still reminds gay people around you how much the world hates them and leads hateful bigots who overhear you to believe that their views are more widely held and acceptable to share in public. Shocking though it may seem, South Park is not a moral authority on these matters.
Aside from that, if you know a word is commonly used a slur against a disprivileged group, someone advises you to stop using it, and your response is that you’d rather say it, hurt someone and apologise if they complain about it than just stop using that word, what does that say about your priorities?
i guess you just have to ask yourself if you are cool with aligning your language with that of bigoted assholes - and risk hurting and/or being judged for it. i will judge you and probably assume you are on the side of the bigoted assholes simply because on a game of odds it’s more likely.
it takes very little effort to be kind and when minorities tell you a very minute step you can take to be kind i generally don’t want to try to fight back as though i’m the one being insulted.
Great episode.
I think they 👇
need an example of someone being hurt to drive their point home.
@spujb@lemmy.cafe do you have a ready example?
Aight this isn’t bad:
So I think we can be preemptively told not to say the word on social media. (RE: “if I…offend someone…I’ll apologize”) When you’re talking to your best friend in your car though it’s probably hard to demand you police yourself (in the example you never use the word in public, and neither you nor your friend ever will no matter how much you say it privately). So it shouldn’t be a thought crime kinda but probably appropriate to avoid it in public or unfamiliar company.
Curious what you think of that take spujb - “tree falls in the forest …”
when an entire disabled community gets together and tells abled people that the word carries hurt, that should be more than enough evidence. if that’s not enough for a person, my only suggestion is to look inward and ask why they are so quick to doubt the personal statements of lived experiences of thousands of disabled folks.
regarding the “tree falls in the forest” thing—i literally don’t care. arguing it just gives bad vibes; some arguments you lose the moment you try to debate bro them. like i remember this one streamer who was like “but what if i said the n word in the vaccum of space where no light or sound could escape” and it’s just like bro the fact that you touch so little grass to the point you are arguing about this tells us all we need to know about you.
I wish 2009 would call me back 😞
hi back, i’m ‘09 how ya doin buddy
EPIC
Air horn sound
I guess I’m getting too old. Is everyone these days offended by crumbs? And don’t come in with your vocabulary evolves, works both ways. Were I live everyone uses a multitude of slurs and nobody is hurt in the process, but if they do. Then they open their mouth and we have a civilized discussion about it. We’re nearing a point of a privacy invaded society by the people and not the governments at this rate, everyone is opinionated about everything and hurt in the feelings if someone doesn’t adhere to their vision on reality.
this post is literally the definition of me opening my mouth and having a civilized discussion about it. pls respect that. :)
The issue is, though you may make a distinction between “I’m using this slur as an insult and not against its targeted oppressed minority”, bigots make no such distinction. Hearing others use the slur and normalize it emboldens these bigots to use it against vulnerable minorities, backing up to “I didn’t mean it that way” when they get called out. The word’s legacy also tangles with a fair bit of racism, as children of minority races were often labeled “mentally retarded” for poor English skills or just so they could be shuffled out of class after school segregation was ended. It’s just a word, yes, but one with a lot of ugly history in the US at the very least.
Plus, the dislike of the word really isn’t new, it just has more support these days. We have lots of other words to choose from, what’s the harm in avoiding this one?
Is it okay if I direct it towards myself even if I’m not the targeted oppressed minority. Like “damn I’m a retard”, since that’s basically the only way I use the word anyhow.
I think that’s why I also don’t have this understanding for it, I’m not a native English speaker and our language has a ton of curse words. Cursing with disease is frowned upon more than other words
Removed by mod
You know who was never ever called r-??? The kids with learning disabilities.
The x key on my keyboard just flew off into the sun, I pressed it so hard.
How would you feel if something you couldn’t change about yourself was used by your peers as an insult? You really don’t see how using the word “retarded” as a stand-in for “stupid” is still an insult to people with mental disabilities? If someone was acting stupid and you said they were acting “like a Chinese person” that’s still insulting to Chinese people even if the person you’re targeting isn’t Chinese.
Also I’m calling shenanigans on “the 1980s definition”. I am the same age as you and I was taught it was cruel to use the word that way back then.
I don’t think I’ve used the word once since high school. Had it been generally unacceptable back then, I wouldn’t have done so. I graduated high school in 2004, and it was at least an acceptable insult back then (though not to call a disabled person), I think. I was a jackass in high school, though, so I could be wrong.
Either way, it offends people now, so we shouldn’t say it. It’s that simple. Deliberately offending people just makes you an asshole.
I think saying it was acceptable is a stretch. I agree it was certainly more commonplace and more acceptable than now, but it was still criticized a good bit.
You’re absolutely right. I meant it was “acceptable” – I don’t recall hearing people judged for saying it, but that was among an immature, high school crowd. It was definitely considered offensive to use as a label, rather than an insult (which was on the same level as f*g; not acceptable, but commonplace).
Fun fact: Abbott sells methylphenidate chlorohydrate with a retardant effect so that it lasts for approximately 16 hours instead of 4, and they called it Aradix Retard lmao. I know why they called it that but I can’t help but laugh every time I see it.
Yes words can mean different things.
Airbus pilots hear the removed call-out all the time.
There’s also the term ritardando in music for gradually slowing down, but at least that’s typically abbreviated to “rit.”
Aradix Retard
Sounds like a Harry Potter spell
Fans: Because it slows things down? Rowling:
A lot of these slow dissolving capsules have a retard as a postfix. At least in Germany.
Not your fault of course but it was always a stupid name. It isn’t arrested or inhibited, during a stage of development, resulting in an underdeveloped outcome (retarded). Like a fire retardant door stops the fire developing, as it would usually on doors. In the case of this drug, the release is inhibited, as its, presumably, a pro-drug.
They could have called it “long lasting”, “pro-drug”, “pro”, “inhib” or “slow release” and these would have all been accurate descriptions. However, retarded isn’t accurate. They chose it anyway though.
I think it’s fine in its original contexts (i.e. “retardant”, or to “retard” something), but could maybe be avoided in 80% of cases.
It is inexcusable to apply it to people though.
those are entirely different words; different parts of speech, etc :) fully agree but it’s helpful to think of it that way instead
I used it yesterday and feel kinda bad. Having said that, the guy I said it to was in an online lobby and I’d said one word on mic and he immediately asked if I was a baddie and told me to rate myself out of 10 for him.
I said some not okay things…
buh-buh-buh but what about when I refer to mechanical engineering! what about when I need to adjust my cam timing! oh no!
I dunno, I would broadly agree and I think that it’s probably not a good thing to be calling people, but I do have two complaints I would like to file with the official board that governs this sort of thing. Neither of them relate to the word’s banned usage, however. Of course, it’s still gonna be a little weird.
One is that I like -tard as a suffix, I think it has a kind of satisfying mouthfeel in pronunciation, I think potentially we need some more words that use it, and I don’t think that as a kind of, like, workaround, or way to say the slur more. I kind of wish the suffix was dissociated from the slur, so this was more possible. The only other word I can think of that does this is mustard, which apparently arrived at a similar pronunciation through a different etymological route. I dunno, I find it to be a kind of like, inherently hilarious word, or satisfying word to say. Unusual, maybe, maybe like an unusual morpheme pairing. Maybe I have some level of just like unprocessed shitheadery though, that’s very possible. I also kind of wish there was a way that actually worked to de-escalate the weight of a slur, to rob it of it’s weight. Obviously, taking it back doesn’t do much, because it’s just going to be subject to the same in-ground out-ground dynamic, a la the n-word, right. It’s okay if gay people call each other or themselves the f-slur, it’s not okay if some straight guy walks in and does it. More positive associations might work but then, you know, doubtful that would work in the first place, and also you’d probably not see a lot of people wanting to take the L and push it on that one because everyone would hate them for it, both the people insulted and those who would use it as a insult.
Also, I don’t like this kind of mentality more broadly of “oh you gotta be more creative when you insult people.”. Some people are so boring and uninterestingly fucked, that they aren’t worth the creativity you expend upon insulting them. I think it just kind of shadows the problem here. No, you don’t want to say the word because it denigrates an entire group of people when you use it in an insulting manner. There’s not really anything there about creativity, or lack thereof, that makes it a moral problem. Sometimes you do need a low-rent insult, it should just be one that isn’t a slur. Call someone a shitheel, or something, it’s easier than this, there are plenty to choose from.
Okay, thirdly, I think there’s also a broader, and interesting question here, of, how an insult being based on like, unchangeable characteristics makes it more mean or more of a slur, right. But then that sort of, leaves out things we might consider as being changeable, like, say, body weight, which I would also say is a dick move, to insult someone on the basis of their weight, or to constantly bring it up, or anything like that. On the other hand, insulting someone on the basis of their eye color is maybe like, very antiquated, still potentially mean, and potentially very mean in like, maybe india? But I dunno so much if it would be considered a slur, really, as much as just kind of a very weird thing to bring up. Insulting someone on the curliness of their hair, maybe, but then that could be seen as a proxy for other things, just like most traits. It’s hard to do this with something too obvious because most of them have been historically associated with like, eugenics and shit like that. Maybe if you were to insult someone based on how big their feet are or something, that might be a more socially acceptable or lighthearted insult, even if it’s still mean.
We also have, like, technically all characteristics are unchangeable, if we live in a deterministic universe, right? Insulting someone’s intelligence, even if they don’t have autism or down syndrome or what have you, is still insulting a deterministic aspect of their character, which was sort of unavoidable for them to stumble into. If you insult someone for even, their choice of boots, right, you are just insulting a characteristic about them which was ultimately inevitable, the result of many dominoes falling into place. I think perhaps when we attempt to understand the purpose of insulting someone, we give it this guise of free will and agency which I think ultimately makes it more mean than it would otherwise be. It robs it of its whimsy.
We view insults as some sort of like, vehicle for tough love, vehicle for change, perhaps, or we view it as maybe righteous, because you’re insulting someone on something they can change and by implication I think, should change. I think we have to be honest, though. Insults are not for the people who are being insulted. They are for the people saying them, they have always been. If that’s the case, it doesn’t even need to be really related to the person you’re insulting at all, or even necessarily directed at them. It doesn’t need to be such a mean thing, if it’s just for you. And if it is just for you, then I think it’s more valuable to do that assessment and figure out why you’re actually doing it, instead of just like, giving into mindless frustration and calling someone a mean name, like a child.
I appreciate the perspective here. You’re thinking about this from a different angle than basically anyone else here, I feel.
