This guy is trash but I can’t get behind doxxing. Maga types will be doing a lot of this over the next 4 years and I certainly won’t like it when they’re doxxing immigrants and LGBTQ folks.
Be clear: I think this dude is as bad as they come, I’m just not comfortable with popularizing the practice, especially when maga types are fans of setting things on fire / shooting at things they disagree with.
If you think my comment is a defense of nick Fuentes, or that horrible slogan, you’re as wrong as is physically possible. I know he’s done worse than this, and now is hiding behind elongated. But that still doesn’t make it a good thing to popularize.
You sound like the type of guy to tell someone who is being shot at that they shouldn’t shoot back because “two wrongs don’t make a right”. This guy should be glad he’s just being doxxed, my grandpa’s generation had no problem sending Sherman tanks with flamethrowers on them after people like him.
Doxxing can be done correctly, and in this case it was. The guy literally opened the door and pepper sprayed someone, he clearly lives there. I agree it’s important to target it correctly, and I too dislike when people erroneously target the wrong people with it (Boston Bomber Reddit Moment comes to mind).
Any other tool can be poorly used as well, people shouldn’t stop concealed carrying because some other people hit innocent bystanders in the past with theirs. They should train and use force responsibly. Writing off an entire method of dealing with fascists because some morons have used it irresponsibly in the past is a reductive and silly take.
It’s inherently risky because online data can be stale. It’s inherently terroristic because you are essentially saying “hey anyone, go do anything in a normal neighborhood, your enemy is there”. What if there’s a shootout of Fuentes front yard and a bystander is killed? That’s net positive violence for the community that wouldn’t have happened otherwise.
As you said, reddit Boston bomber. That’s another alternative if online sleuthing goes wrong.
Back to my original point: doxxing high profile maga types will popularize the activity, and once they latch on in response they will do it with zero care or caution. You may say they are doing it already, I’m saying once it’s plastered across their nrws feeds they will do it a whole lot more.
That’s MORE net new innocent people put in harms way.
There are effective and existing ways to carry out whatever violence or vengeance or self defence. Doxxing isn’t one of them. Being trained in concealed carry and using a gun is not alike doxxing. Doxxing is like a bomb.
Being armed is fine. Looking after your people is great. Not taking any shit is great. If you feel you need to confront people, do it with a level of accuracy.
I guess we just disagree on what doxxing is. When done correctly it’s just someone’s specific address or other info being posted publicly, it doesn’t have to be associated with a call to violence it’s more likely that people just stand outside his house with signs. It’s also not targeted at a whole neighborhood. I can see why you’re concerned that MAGA types won’t be as careful with it, but they can be charged with crimes if they take it too far just like anyone else. Simply knowing where someone lives isn’t a crime.
Imo when you doxx someone, it’s implied that you are directing people to go to their house and at minimum, confront them. I totally get the urge to do that with this person. He’s harmed a lot of people with his rhetoric. But even if accurate address, a confrontation can lead to violence when an angry person confronts a hateful person, on their property. I understand your point about protests on their street, but I still believe that will create potential for violence. I am not saying protest is wrong. Protest is great.
If it’s something than a protest or a confrontation, then we are talking about what? Sending dogshit in the mail at the low end, or throwing a Molotov cocktail or similar at the high end. Then my concerns about accuracy are relevant. What if the address is wrong and a random family is the victim?
Also, firebombing is not the society I want to live in, even if Fuentes as trash.
Everyone is so ready to assume I’m an apologist for Fuentes, or a misogynist telling women to just shut up. That’s not it at all, but people here are some ready for violence and so ready to be mad that what was formally a pretty popular sentiment (doxxing and swatting is bad) is now apparently different because the target is a bad dude. I fundamentally believe society is worse if we compromise our behavior because the target is a specific person. I also think the blowback of stooping to that level will result in increased harm of people who are already having a real tough go of things. What some are calling cowardice on my part is, in my opinion, harm reduction for people who need it most, and a call for sanity.
The point is they will do it too, and it will have been increasingly normalized. It will not be applied per your definition of “fine”. Remember, “they” (read, maga types) think immigrants and others are “harming society”.
“They” also do things like voter intimidation at polling places, burning ballot boxes and similar. I wouldn’t say it’s ok to do those things, just because right wing fascists are doing it.
Sharing my opinion that I think doxxing is dangerous does not obligate me to provide a solution, but to humor you, I’d focus on looking after your people, sticking together, and organizing. These maga clowns thrive on building “others” they can isolate and abuse.
Be clear: I want the very worst for him, but I want it to come from a system of justice, not a method that often leads to innocent bystanders being hurt.
Read the room, my guy. America has no system of justice. Most of these abhorrent people are on their way to governmental leadership positions. There’s no highroad that leads to winning back the country or justice.
I think maybe the problem here is there is no justice when the system has failed by not confining the worst behaviors of the rich. We have no access to the tools you have mentioned, such as prosecution. Their felonious leader has modeled their path forward by evading any and all consequence. We are the innocent bystanders. They have already normalized harming us and now they will legislate it. We must resist the bystander effect at all cost.
Thanks for actually discussing things with me, your comment is great. The concerns you list are super super valid.
Let me share my perspective on doxxing in light of your comment: I feel that to accept the normalization of the act of doxxing to be somewhat like the bystander effect. (Please keep reading, I’m not trying to twist your words). If we see doxxing happening, and say “yeah, that’s a normal thing you do” it’s as if we just keep on walking while the house burns (I think that’s what happened in the original event the effect is based on). Edit you can disagree with me, that’s ok. I’m just trying to use the example you provided to house the discussion.
Instead I think we should stand up against that even when they do it regularly.
I do not have a full answer for you regarding how we can alternatively take the fight to fascists, my point, which I have been slammed on here is that I fundamentally believe the task should be attempted, to our last moments, without using the tools of the oppressors. But I’m happy to keep noodling on it with you, as you are actually discussing.
Hard disagree. Look at how he reacted when an old lady showed up at his door. The reason the Nazis are so comfy recently is because of the high road tolerance you’re espousing. In a civil society, I’d be agreeing with you, but this isn’t a civil society anymore. It’s more like The Grey and you’re trying to play nice with the wolves. It’s them or us, and it isn’t us that made it this way.
They won’t stand toe to toe. They’ll respond in the night like cowards they are.
I am NOT espousing tolerance. Everyone is foolishly assuming I’m saying “don’t doxx AND DONT DO ANYTHING ELSE”. I’m not. I’m saying doxxing is not the road to success, and is terroristic behavior. There are more effective, more targeted methods available that don’t endanger neighbors and mistaken identities (wrong address)
They want you to normalize behavior like this.
Edit if eating downvotes for disagreeing with this community on popularizing poorly targeted, in accurate methods, that can easily be reversed en masse onto at risk people, by enemies who have lots of guns and lots of free time, (and a displayed proclivity for surreptitiously destroying and shooting things up in the night) then I’m fine with it.
Y’all are clearly ready to just fling violence all over without thinking of innocent people who will be caught up. The votes reflect that.
By popularizing the topic it is normalized. There’s also no need to compromise ethical standards.
I want Fuentes charged for the hate crimes and terroristic threats he makes. I am NOT defending him. But I don’t want people going into his neighborhood, getting the house wrong and hurting an innocent person, for example. Or maybe he moves and the new owner gets the heat.
Charged for what? The president has said grab them by the pussy? What crimes do you think he we’ll be charged with? There is no reason of law in America.
By justifying it, you’re justifying it for them too, as they believe they have the same or similar grievances. Regardless of who you think is more guilty.
They already believe themselves to be justified and have had their consent manufactured over a long time. As evidenced by the fact that they feel righteous in the Jan 6 attempt, and are responsible for most terrorism.
I understand the desire. But two wrongs don’t make a right.
For example, I’m also against the jokes about prison rape. I don’t care who you are, you don’t deserve to be repeatedly raped because you committed a crime.
Edit the point is that feeling of seeking retribution is natural. You want “bad” people to get the very worst of life. But if for nothing else it’s best not to act on those thoughts because we wouldn’t want that “retribution” brought upon others or even ourselves.
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll be totally ok with it if I start actively harming women by insinuating I own them and you doxx me for that so that women can come tell me how I’ve harmed them. If I spout white supremacist drivel I want you to punch me until I stop. If I make thinly veiled rape threats I want you to kill me.
Since I want that to happen to me, I can go ahead and do what I want, right?
It’s not “you”, it’s the innocent people about to be doxxed for their immigration status, who are not interested in whatever deal you’re comfortable with.
Once the practice becomes politically popularized, the cat is out of the bag.
If you think non-fascists being civil and respectful to fascist is going to give fascists even a fraction of a second of pause before they do shitty things, my only possible conclusion is that you’re painfully naïve and also that you don’t actually understand what fascism is.
Who is “us”? I’m not here to be a good guy. I’m here to live my life on my terms without interference and help others do the same. Notice that nowhere in that sentence did I say “Make racists comfortable and happy” or “Snuggle up to a smarmy pile of garbage who trolls women”.
I’m not a good guy. I’m not a nice guy. I’m not the tolerant left. I’m pissed the fuck off and I’m not above doxxing a stupid cunt obliquely threatening rape or punching a Nazi. You can whisper your mean words about them into your pillow or whatever you think will make them stop and I support your right to do so. But that ain’t me.
You’re cool with leveraging error prone violence that can easily be reversed on to at risk people. Live that best life i guess.
I’m all for taking it to these fascists, just get a better method lmao. Doxxing is shit because it can easily hurts bystanders, and is terroristic.
Everyone here is very ready to be conversationally violent, but there’s nothing “tolerant” about not popularizing terroristic methods. It’s just having basic respect for other citizens who don’t want to be in harms way with no reason.
What if they got Fuentes address wrong and someone got their innocent house burnt down? That’s why I don’t like it.
If you’re ready to take down Nazis, do it correctly. Don’t risk randos.
It’s going to happen either way. We can dox their worst or sit back and do nothing. And they’ll still do what they are going to.
Which is why the right always seems to win. They keep at something till they get it.
They’ve shown time and time again they latch into media trends like the garbage outfit, the ear bandaid, the election official suspicion. If doxxing becomes more widespread, net new people will be harmed
If someone shoots a gun at you, do you shoot back?
They latch on to manufactured garbage anyway, there is no amount of ammunition we can avoid giving them.
They sent out thousands of texts to young black Americans in more than 10 states telling them they are ‘due to the plantations at X date 9 AM sharp’, they are already doxxing and worse.
There is no legal or verbal defense against this madness.
Once it spreads, historically, industrial levels of violence are the only way to try to put the genie back in the bottle.
I’d rather small scale intimidation against ringleaders like nick, than having to bomb the fuck out of some redneck stronghold in Missouri in 10 years.
My opinion is clearly unpopular here and I’m ok with it. I don’t think it’s cool to normalize violence (or threats of violence) even if the recipient is abhorrent. This isnt a “oh let’s all have free speech, let’s here what maga has to say” / platforming type of comment/opinion I’m sharing. It’s a “I’m not going to normalize violence especially because I don’t want it turned around on at risk people.”
Y’all are free to have your own voice on it, I’m just sharing my view.
The violence of the oppressors is normalized because they can pass laws to enforce it. The only violence you’re opposed to is the defense of the oppressed.
No opinion on the matter at hand, I’m just throwing out there that saving a woman’s life when she’s bleeding out due to lethal complications in her pregnancy is illegal until the last second in many states (let’s see how Project 2025 will impact that in the future). Appointing the kind of special counsel that has been perfectly normal and legal since like forever? Illegal the moment he investigates Trump. Doing crimes? Illegal. Doing crimes as president? Immune, according to Trump’s Supreme court sock puppets…
What’s legal and illegal only depends on how many judges you’ve bought these days.
PS: Oh and all that brazen bribery shit that would get any other official not just fired, but straight up locked up? Perfectly legal but only if you’re a Supreme Court judge. Guess who got to decide that? Go have a cookie if your guess was the very people accepting the bribes.
You’re not comfortable using a tactic these chucklefucks use aggressively against us?
You’re as bad as DNC leadership, tbh. This “they go low we go high” idiocy got us where we are. Stop bringing a fucking deck of cards to a gunfight.
Do not lean into the paradox of tolerance. Intolerant views must not be tolerated. It’s always a good day to punch (or dox, or harass, or share their extremist views to their employer or…) a Nazi.
Hey, don’t get me wrong - I get what you’re saying, and nominally I wholeheartedly agree. I just ALSO feel that there’s a single, very specific exception: when a political movement inherently involves political violence (that is: fascism), this rule absolutely does not apply.
I get the motivation, I’m just sharing my opinion that I can’t follow, because I personally believe other innocent folks will be swept up and hurt in the process.
I am no friend of these maga types. I think people here are very angry about these people (edit like Fuentes… Rightfully so!, I am too.) and my comment is perhaps seen as “defending”? Him. I am not. I just don’t think this is the way to do it.
Again: I get what you’re saying. And again: I do nominally agree.
What I’m saying is that you’re looking at the trumpians/maga/proud boys/3%ers as “weird republicans”. They’re not. You need to be looking at them as NSDAP/Nazis/Sturmabteilung. Because that’s what they are. And the want to kill a whole fucking lot of us, because it gives them a hard-on.
Moreover, I’m not saying that we should be conducting overt, systemic political violence now, but I AM saying that we need to be fully prepared for that eventuality. And to that end, we should be looking to the Maquis, as well as the Polish + German resistance throughout WW2.
I see resistance against their ways as clinging to, and calling for maintaining norms (when norms are ethical, reasonable… I fully acknowledge even without maga MUCH needs to be improved in America). It is my belief that by normalizing their tools, we institutionalize their methods. We, by participation, make common what should be extraordinary.
It is my opinion that resisting fascist drift is resisting. Others don’t see it this way and are claiming I’m an apologist or something. That’s too bad cause fuck nick Fuentes. I just don’t like doxxing.
That’s cool, I’m learning a lot of folks here are at least conversationally cool with political violence. I get the urge, it’s just not my path. I don’t see doxxing as defending people, I see it as inherently terroristic because bystanders could be harmed, mistakes can be made, and it can be leveraged against at risk poeple. So I stand against it. I’ll be in my seat calling for peace, and looking after my community, even if it’s unpopular here. I see that as defending.
We have a right to defend ourselves including preemptively.
Do you disagree?
If so you’re accomplishing the same thing in the long run as the Nazis.
How does that feel to be basically siding with the bad guys because of your apathy?
Completely agree, I just don’t think doxxing is defense. Doxxing is akin to swatting and reddit boston bomber chasing. Bystanders are at risk and mistakes happen. It’s for those reasons I find doxxing unacceptable.
Please do not imply I’m apathetic, there’s no evidence for that. I’m not siding with anyone, I’m saying doxxing is not acceptable behavior by anyone, because of the risks.
Edit I don’t approve of when things like jurors on trump cases, or election officials are doxxed either, if you have some implication that I differentiate on who should be doxxed or something…
I mean just the other day some folks were talking about his catty posts about the twilight movies. Trump is in some way relatable because he most the faults of everyone I’ve ever met.
You can feel different ways about different people.
‘I dunno about jailing rapists, because what if they start jailing rape victims?’ is obviously nonsense. Swapping in fascists and the targets of fascism is not far off.
I’m fine with bad things happening to this guy, in particular. I have no moral obligation to feel that way about every other living person in order to say that.
It’s not the feeling, it’s the application. I made clear I have no love for this guy. But via popularization, the tactic will now be used terroristically.
Vigilante justice is all fun and games until it’s flipped and used against at risk folks.
We are already seeing this get worse, and us not doing it only fucking encourages them doing it to us. The fuck do you think is gonna stop them - Twitter harassment policies? The site’s run by a Nazi. The law? The federal fucking government is about to hire the same Nazi. That New Hampshire Libertarian Party creep straight-up called for assassination, and all the FBI did was show up and tell him not to. He has video of himself flipping them off as they drive away. Maybe ‘tut tut, let’s not sink to their level’ won’t work!
As you said: these assholes will be doing it to innocent people. You don’t have to pretend there’s some grand moral quandry when bad things also happen to bastards.
It’s not “grand moral” to not direct people to a neighborhood to carry out violence. (Because that’s the implication and often follow up to doxxing)
I get it, my opinion isn’t popular on Lemmy. Oh well. I’m in the “never doxx, never swat” camp and I’m ok with it.
Acting like it’s fine is just one more step to their end of the pool. Can’t complain about them doxxing at risk folks if “you” do it to. If that’s “tut tut” to you, oh well.
Can’t complain about them doxxing at risk folks if “you” do it to.
YES YOU CAN.
There’s no hypocrisy in wanting consequences for rapists, but not rape victims. It is not somehow a contradiction, to say some people deserve bad things. You don’t have to play ‘but what if it was opposite day?’ when demonstrable bastards suffer. You are free to feel angry only when innocent people are hurt. You have that right.
Look, it’s crazy out here and I’m not gonna say the US justice system has a sterling reputation, but I think the normalization of vigilante justice / retribution is not the same thing as hoping rapists are charged and incarcerated for their crime.
Doxxing leads to swatting and reddit-boston-bomber mistakes. It is not proper justice.
Edit I’m trying to be a member of a more sane, more just future, and I dont see how normalizing things like doxxing, (just because they already happen, or sometimes happen to bad people) gets us there in any way.
This guy is trash but I can’t get behind doxxing. Maga types will be doing a lot of this over the next 4 years and I certainly won’t like it when they’re doxxing immigrants and LGBTQ folks.
Be clear: I think this dude is as bad as they come, I’m just not comfortable with popularizing the practice, especially when maga types are fans of setting things on fire / shooting at things they disagree with.
If you think my comment is a defense of nick Fuentes, or that horrible slogan, you’re as wrong as is physically possible. I know he’s done worse than this, and now is hiding behind elongated. But that still doesn’t make it a good thing to popularize.
You sound like the type of guy to tell someone who is being shot at that they shouldn’t shoot back because “two wrongs don’t make a right”. This guy should be glad he’s just being doxxed, my grandpa’s generation had no problem sending Sherman tanks with flamethrowers on them after people like him.
Armchair general comment.
They never happened in an American neighborhood and you know it.
Attacking Nazis in an active warzone is not the same as sending people to a random neighborhood with little proof of your event at the right house.
As I said in the comment, Nick Fuentes is trash, but so is doxxing. Innocent people get hurt when people doxx.
I never said don’t defend yourself or even take the fight to people like him. Just don’t do things that will get innocent people hurt.
But whatever y’all just want to act tough and not care about consequences
Edit saying doxxing is the right tool is like saying “if you’re shot at, leave a bomb in a public place where you think your enemy goes”
Doxxing can be done correctly, and in this case it was. The guy literally opened the door and pepper sprayed someone, he clearly lives there. I agree it’s important to target it correctly, and I too dislike when people erroneously target the wrong people with it (Boston Bomber Reddit Moment comes to mind).
Any other tool can be poorly used as well, people shouldn’t stop concealed carrying because some other people hit innocent bystanders in the past with theirs. They should train and use force responsibly. Writing off an entire method of dealing with fascists because some morons have used it irresponsibly in the past is a reductive and silly take.
It’s inherently risky because online data can be stale. It’s inherently terroristic because you are essentially saying “hey anyone, go do anything in a normal neighborhood, your enemy is there”. What if there’s a shootout of Fuentes front yard and a bystander is killed? That’s net positive violence for the community that wouldn’t have happened otherwise.
As you said, reddit Boston bomber. That’s another alternative if online sleuthing goes wrong.
Back to my original point: doxxing high profile maga types will popularize the activity, and once they latch on in response they will do it with zero care or caution. You may say they are doing it already, I’m saying once it’s plastered across their nrws feeds they will do it a whole lot more.
That’s MORE net new innocent people put in harms way.
There are effective and existing ways to carry out whatever violence or vengeance or self defence. Doxxing isn’t one of them. Being trained in concealed carry and using a gun is not alike doxxing. Doxxing is like a bomb.
Being armed is fine. Looking after your people is great. Not taking any shit is great. If you feel you need to confront people, do it with a level of accuracy.
I guess we just disagree on what doxxing is. When done correctly it’s just someone’s specific address or other info being posted publicly, it doesn’t have to be associated with a call to violence it’s more likely that people just stand outside his house with signs. It’s also not targeted at a whole neighborhood. I can see why you’re concerned that MAGA types won’t be as careful with it, but they can be charged with crimes if they take it too far just like anyone else. Simply knowing where someone lives isn’t a crime.
Imo when you doxx someone, it’s implied that you are directing people to go to their house and at minimum, confront them. I totally get the urge to do that with this person. He’s harmed a lot of people with his rhetoric. But even if accurate address, a confrontation can lead to violence when an angry person confronts a hateful person, on their property. I understand your point about protests on their street, but I still believe that will create potential for violence. I am not saying protest is wrong. Protest is great.
If it’s something than a protest or a confrontation, then we are talking about what? Sending dogshit in the mail at the low end, or throwing a Molotov cocktail or similar at the high end. Then my concerns about accuracy are relevant. What if the address is wrong and a random family is the victim?
Also, firebombing is not the society I want to live in, even if Fuentes as trash.
Everyone is so ready to assume I’m an apologist for Fuentes, or a misogynist telling women to just shut up. That’s not it at all, but people here are some ready for violence and so ready to be mad that what was formally a pretty popular sentiment (doxxing and swatting is bad) is now apparently different because the target is a bad dude. I fundamentally believe society is worse if we compromise our behavior because the target is a specific person. I also think the blowback of stooping to that level will result in increased harm of people who are already having a real tough go of things. What some are calling cowardice on my part is, in my opinion, harm reduction for people who need it most, and a call for sanity.
Nah, doxxing streamers or random people cause you’re a no life creep is disgusting.
Doxxing people actively harming society is fine.
The point is they will do it too, and it will have been increasingly normalized. It will not be applied per your definition of “fine”. Remember, “they” (read, maga types) think immigrants and others are “harming society”.
They already are. This is just self defense.
2 wrongs don’t make a right.
“They” also do things like voter intimidation at polling places, burning ballot boxes and similar. I wouldn’t say it’s ok to do those things, just because right wing fascists are doing it.
So what’s your course of action. Cry in your pillow? What ever most of the lefts think their actions it obviously is t enough.
Sharing my opinion that I think doxxing is dangerous does not obligate me to provide a solution, but to humor you, I’d focus on looking after your people, sticking together, and organizing. These maga clowns thrive on building “others” they can isolate and abuse.
There’s nothing wrong with ruining the life of a monster like Nick Fuentes. There are consequences to publicly encouraging rape.
Be clear: I want the very worst for him, but I want it to come from a system of justice, not a method that often leads to innocent bystanders being hurt.
Read the room, my guy. America has no system of justice. Most of these abhorrent people are on their way to governmental leadership positions. There’s no highroad that leads to winning back the country or justice.
The lack of quality doesn’t mean I need to accept “worse”. I certainly don’t need to cheer for it, even if I personally can’t stop it.
I think maybe the problem here is there is no justice when the system has failed by not confining the worst behaviors of the rich. We have no access to the tools you have mentioned, such as prosecution. Their felonious leader has modeled their path forward by evading any and all consequence. We are the innocent bystanders. They have already normalized harming us and now they will legislate it. We must resist the bystander effect at all cost.
What do you suggest in this scenario?
Thanks for actually discussing things with me, your comment is great. The concerns you list are super super valid.
Let me share my perspective on doxxing in light of your comment: I feel that to accept the normalization of the act of doxxing to be somewhat like the bystander effect. (Please keep reading, I’m not trying to twist your words). If we see doxxing happening, and say “yeah, that’s a normal thing you do” it’s as if we just keep on walking while the house burns (I think that’s what happened in the original event the effect is based on). Edit you can disagree with me, that’s ok. I’m just trying to use the example you provided to house the discussion.
Instead I think we should stand up against that even when they do it regularly.
I do not have a full answer for you regarding how we can alternatively take the fight to fascists, my point, which I have been slammed on here is that I fundamentally believe the task should be attempted, to our last moments, without using the tools of the oppressors. But I’m happy to keep noodling on it with you, as you are actually discussing.
“when they go low, we go high”
No thanks, I’m all out of weed. Let’s fight them where they are instead.
They are hoping you’ll say that
Hard disagree. Look at how he reacted when an old lady showed up at his door. The reason the Nazis are so comfy recently is because of the high road tolerance you’re espousing. In a civil society, I’d be agreeing with you, but this isn’t a civil society anymore. It’s more like The Grey and you’re trying to play nice with the wolves. It’s them or us, and it isn’t us that made it this way.
They won’t stand toe to toe. They’ll respond in the night like cowards they are.
I am NOT espousing tolerance. Everyone is foolishly assuming I’m saying “don’t doxx AND DONT DO ANYTHING ELSE”. I’m not. I’m saying doxxing is not the road to success, and is terroristic behavior. There are more effective, more targeted methods available that don’t endanger neighbors and mistaken identities (wrong address)
They want you to normalize behavior like this.
Edit if eating downvotes for disagreeing with this community on popularizing poorly targeted, in accurate methods, that can easily be reversed en masse onto at risk people, by enemies who have lots of guns and lots of free time, (and a displayed proclivity for surreptitiously destroying and shooting things up in the night) then I’m fine with it.
Y’all are clearly ready to just fling violence all over without thinking of innocent people who will be caught up. The votes reflect that.
Bahahahaha false equivalence.
Never said they were equivalent, I’m describing the behavior of the people that I don’t want coming to use doxxing as their day to day tool.
Sure but why on earth should that mean we should condemn it universally? It’s not like they’d stop if we did.
By popularizing the topic it is normalized. There’s also no need to compromise ethical standards.
I want Fuentes charged for the hate crimes and terroristic threats he makes. I am NOT defending him. But I don’t want people going into his neighborhood, getting the house wrong and hurting an innocent person, for example. Or maybe he moves and the new owner gets the heat.
Charged for what? The president has said grab them by the pussy? What crimes do you think he we’ll be charged with? There is no reason of law in America.
You are explicitly defending him. And putting in time and effort to do so.
Disagree. I’ve made my opinion on him quite clear.
My comment history is clearly anti maga anti fuentes.
I’m not interested in normalizing the tools of fascists and or terrorists.
Explicit defense is completely inaccurate. My original comment even said I have no defense for Fuentes, who I believe belongs in jail
Doxxing is wrong because of 2 things:
Bystanders get hurt when mistakes are made
Normalizing such things will put net new, innocent folks at risk.
This is the recent event that has doxxing on my mind, and why I’ve taken the time here
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41532098
I agree with you in principle, but it didn’t happen in this case and I feel like at this point, what’s done is done and you might as well laugh.
Eh… fuck em. Let them fuck around and find out. I’m tired of playing nice guy with these twats.
This is literally what they’ve been saying for years. It’s amazing how much we are like the people we hate the most.
GOP behavior baseline is Dems breaking point behavior. Notable difference.
By justifying it, you’re justifying it for them too, as they believe they have the same or similar grievances. Regardless of who you think is more guilty.
They already believe themselves to be justified and have had their consent manufactured over a long time. As evidenced by the fact that they feel righteous in the Jan 6 attempt, and are responsible for most terrorism.
They say the same thing about the BLM protests.
I understand the desire. But two wrongs don’t make a right.
For example, I’m also against the jokes about prison rape. I don’t care who you are, you don’t deserve to be repeatedly raped because you committed a crime.
Edit the point is that feeling of seeking retribution is natural. You want “bad” people to get the very worst of life. But if for nothing else it’s best not to act on those thoughts because we wouldn’t want that “retribution” brought upon others or even ourselves.
I’ll make a deal with you. I’ll be totally ok with it if I start actively harming women by insinuating I own them and you doxx me for that so that women can come tell me how I’ve harmed them. If I spout white supremacist drivel I want you to punch me until I stop. If I make thinly veiled rape threats I want you to kill me.
Since I want that to happen to me, I can go ahead and do what I want, right?
It’s not “you”, it’s the innocent people about to be doxxed for their immigration status, who are not interested in whatever deal you’re comfortable with.
Once the practice becomes politically popularized, the cat is out of the bag.
If you think non-fascists being civil and respectful to fascist is going to give fascists even a fraction of a second of pause before they do shitty things, my only possible conclusion is that you’re painfully naïve and also that you don’t actually understand what fascism is.
Doing their dance moves doesn’t make us “good” anymore.
Who is “us”? I’m not here to be a good guy. I’m here to live my life on my terms without interference and help others do the same. Notice that nowhere in that sentence did I say “Make racists comfortable and happy” or “Snuggle up to a smarmy pile of garbage who trolls women”.
I’m not a good guy. I’m not a nice guy. I’m not the tolerant left. I’m pissed the fuck off and I’m not above doxxing a stupid cunt obliquely threatening rape or punching a Nazi. You can whisper your mean words about them into your pillow or whatever you think will make them stop and I support your right to do so. But that ain’t me.
Us being everyone who is not a maga.
You’re cool with leveraging error prone violence that can easily be reversed on to at risk people. Live that best life i guess.
I’m all for taking it to these fascists, just get a better method lmao. Doxxing is shit because it can easily hurts bystanders, and is terroristic.
Everyone here is very ready to be conversationally violent, but there’s nothing “tolerant” about not popularizing terroristic methods. It’s just having basic respect for other citizens who don’t want to be in harms way with no reason.
What if they got Fuentes address wrong and someone got their innocent house burnt down? That’s why I don’t like it.
If you’re ready to take down Nazis, do it correctly. Don’t risk randos.
Those two scenarios are mutually exclusive.
It’s like saying, “Well, you don’t want non-violent offenders in prison, so no one should ever go to prison for any reason.”
It’s going to happen either way. We can dox their worst or sit back and do nothing. And they’ll still do what they are going to. Which is why the right always seems to win. They keep at something till they get it.
Sure but taking the high road has done nothing but embolden the right. It’s past time of playing nice.
They’ll do it regardless of if it’s done to this dipshit or not.
Yes, I don’t throw a bomb at them.
My core point is 2 part:
There is no legal or verbal defense against this madness.
Once it spreads, historically, industrial levels of violence are the only way to try to put the genie back in the bottle.
I’d rather small scale intimidation against ringleaders like nick, than having to bomb the fuck out of some redneck stronghold in Missouri in 10 years.
My opinion is clearly unpopular here and I’m ok with it. I don’t think it’s cool to normalize violence (or threats of violence) even if the recipient is abhorrent. This isnt a “oh let’s all have free speech, let’s here what maga has to say” / platforming type of comment/opinion I’m sharing. It’s a “I’m not going to normalize violence especially because I don’t want it turned around on at risk people.”
Y’all are free to have your own voice on it, I’m just sharing my view.
The violence of the oppressors is normalized because they can pass laws to enforce it. The only violence you’re opposed to is the defense of the oppressed.
No opinion on the matter at hand, I’m just throwing out there that saving a woman’s life when she’s bleeding out due to lethal complications in her pregnancy is illegal until the last second in many states (let’s see how Project 2025 will impact that in the future). Appointing the kind of special counsel that has been perfectly normal and legal since like forever? Illegal the moment he investigates Trump. Doing crimes? Illegal. Doing crimes as president? Immune, according to Trump’s Supreme court sock puppets…
What’s legal and illegal only depends on how many judges you’ve bought these days.
PS: Oh and all that brazen bribery shit that would get any other official not just fired, but straight up locked up? Perfectly legal but only if you’re a Supreme Court judge. Guess who got to decide that? Go have a cookie if your guess was the very people accepting the bribes.
Untrue. I’m opposed to violence that involves innocent bystanders.
Is Nick Fuentes an innocent bystander?
Not even close
So let’s say nobody dozed this guy. Do you think that is going to stop anything you are afraid of?
One of my fears, aside from popularizing the practice, is mistaken address, and innocent people being hurt. So yeah, it would sure help that 100%.
Regarding the first point, I believe doxxing high profile people does indeed popularize it, so yeah, it would help that too.
You’re not comfortable using a tactic these chucklefucks use aggressively against us?
You’re as bad as DNC leadership, tbh. This “they go low we go high” idiocy got us where we are. Stop bringing a fucking deck of cards to a gunfight.
Do not lean into the paradox of tolerance. Intolerant views must not be tolerated. It’s always a good day to punch (or dox, or harass, or share their extremist views to their employer or…) a Nazi.
I shared my opinion that I’m not into normalizing political violence, even if they are already comfortable with it. I get y’all don’t agree.
Hey, don’t get me wrong - I get what you’re saying, and nominally I wholeheartedly agree. I just ALSO feel that there’s a single, very specific exception: when a political movement inherently involves political violence (that is: fascism), this rule absolutely does not apply.
I get the motivation, I’m just sharing my opinion that I can’t follow, because I personally believe other innocent folks will be swept up and hurt in the process.
I am no friend of these maga types. I think people here are very angry about these people (edit like Fuentes… Rightfully so!, I am too.) and my comment is perhaps seen as “defending”? Him. I am not. I just don’t think this is the way to do it.
Again: I get what you’re saying. And again: I do nominally agree.
What I’m saying is that you’re looking at the trumpians/maga/proud boys/3%ers as “weird republicans”. They’re not. You need to be looking at them as NSDAP/Nazis/Sturmabteilung. Because that’s what they are. And the want to kill a whole fucking lot of us, because it gives them a hard-on.
Moreover, I’m not saying that we should be conducting overt, systemic political violence now, but I AM saying that we need to be fully prepared for that eventuality. And to that end, we should be looking to the Maquis, as well as the Polish + German resistance throughout WW2.
We are aligned on what they are.
I see resistance against their ways as clinging to, and calling for maintaining norms (when norms are ethical, reasonable… I fully acknowledge even without maga MUCH needs to be improved in America). It is my belief that by normalizing their tools, we institutionalize their methods. We, by participation, make common what should be extraordinary.
It is my opinion that resisting fascist drift is resisting. Others don’t see it this way and are claiming I’m an apologist or something. That’s too bad cause fuck nick Fuentes. I just don’t like doxxing.
I used to think like you. Until last week.
That’s cool, I’m learning a lot of folks here are at least conversationally cool with political violence. I get the urge, it’s just not my path. I don’t see doxxing as defending people, I see it as inherently terroristic because bystanders could be harmed, mistakes can be made, and it can be leveraged against at risk poeple. So I stand against it. I’ll be in my seat calling for peace, and looking after my community, even if it’s unpopular here. I see that as defending.
Have a good one
We have a right to defend ourselves including preemptively. Do you disagree?
If so you’re accomplishing the same thing in the long run as the Nazis. How does that feel to be basically siding with the bad guys because of your apathy?
Completely agree, I just don’t think doxxing is defense. Doxxing is akin to swatting and reddit boston bomber chasing. Bystanders are at risk and mistakes happen. It’s for those reasons I find doxxing unacceptable.
Please do not imply I’m apathetic, there’s no evidence for that. I’m not siding with anyone, I’m saying doxxing is not acceptable behavior by anyone, because of the risks.
Edit I don’t approve of when things like jurors on trump cases, or election officials are doxxed either, if you have some implication that I differentiate on who should be doxxed or something…
I understand your opinion but your also the person they well just let someone take over the country then be like oh how did this happen.
Untrue. I never said do nothing, I am saying don’t do things that can hurt bystanders or popularize hiding at risk folks
the only way these idiots will support anti doxxing laws are if they are doxxed. Its how you build a consensus.
Look at the plane thing. Because rich people wher effected they can now block that info.
I mean just the other day some folks were talking about his catty posts about the twilight movies. Trump is in some way relatable because he most the faults of everyone I’ve ever met.
You can feel different ways about different people.
‘I dunno about jailing rapists, because what if they start jailing rape victims?’ is obviously nonsense. Swapping in fascists and the targets of fascism is not far off.
I’m fine with bad things happening to this guy, in particular. I have no moral obligation to feel that way about every other living person in order to say that.
It’s not the feeling, it’s the application. I made clear I have no love for this guy. But via popularization, the tactic will now be used terroristically.
Vigilante justice is all fun and games until it’s flipped and used against at risk folks.
“Now.” Because they totally weren’t already doing it.
People are getting doxxed just for saying Israel shouldn’t bomb hospitals.
And that’s fucking terrible.
Edit, as an example: the climate is in pretty bad shape. Should we stop trying to improve it?
Comparison rejected.
We are already seeing this get worse, and us not doing it only fucking encourages them doing it to us. The fuck do you think is gonna stop them - Twitter harassment policies? The site’s run by a Nazi. The law? The federal fucking government is about to hire the same Nazi. That New Hampshire Libertarian Party creep straight-up called for assassination, and all the FBI did was show up and tell him not to. He has video of himself flipping them off as they drive away. Maybe ‘tut tut, let’s not sink to their level’ won’t work!
As you said: these assholes will be doing it to innocent people. You don’t have to pretend there’s some grand moral quandry when bad things also happen to bastards.
It’s not “grand moral” to not direct people to a neighborhood to carry out violence. (Because that’s the implication and often follow up to doxxing)
I get it, my opinion isn’t popular on Lemmy. Oh well. I’m in the “never doxx, never swat” camp and I’m ok with it.
Acting like it’s fine is just one more step to their end of the pool. Can’t complain about them doxxing at risk folks if “you” do it to. If that’s “tut tut” to you, oh well.
YES YOU CAN.
There’s no hypocrisy in wanting consequences for rapists, but not rape victims. It is not somehow a contradiction, to say some people deserve bad things. You don’t have to play ‘but what if it was opposite day?’ when demonstrable bastards suffer. You are free to feel angry only when innocent people are hurt. You have that right.
Look, it’s crazy out here and I’m not gonna say the US justice system has a sterling reputation, but I think the normalization of vigilante justice / retribution is not the same thing as hoping rapists are charged and incarcerated for their crime.
Doxxing leads to swatting and reddit-boston-bomber mistakes. It is not proper justice.
Edit I’m trying to be a member of a more sane, more just future, and I dont see how normalizing things like doxxing, (just because they already happen, or sometimes happen to bad people) gets us there in any way.