cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/17199847
@Snowden
The DNC is the only reason you’re not currently enjoying a second-term Sanders and a sane Supreme Court.
Acknowledged. We circled the wagons around the wrong candidate twice in a row. Hillary Clinton was a well qualified candidate with likeability issues. Biden is a long time politician with equally good if not better qualifications than Clinton, he’s just old. Bernie is older. Bernie aligns a hell of a lot closer to my beliefs than the other candidates out there. Bernie isn’t in this race and has endorsed Biden, he’s a wise man and usually is right on most topics. I’m going with Bernie on this one, vote Biden and start building the next generation of leaders, maybe that next leader is you.
Both Hillary and Biden are closer to the country as a whole and more likely to pull moderates, who you need to win if you want to actually win a national election.
The internet has allowed leftists to delude themselves into thinking the only people that need to be appealed to is them.
They fundamentally do not understand the kinds of people that make up this country. I’d love if we were a left leaning population. We aren’t. Continually lying to ourselves about why Bernie didn’t win is a type of paralyzing ignorance that only looks more and more absurd as the years go on.
Do a poll asking Americans their political alignment and the balance will be center right. Poll them again on specific issues and the average end up well to the left of the Democratic party. For a prime example, look at how all the abortion referendums have turned out in red states.
If you poll Americans on issues and not on politicians, the average American is politically closer to Bernie than to Biden. Bernie is more centrist than Biden is.
In case you have not noticed Bernie is not on the ballot. He is supporting Joe Biden. If you support Bernie, you will vote for Joe Biden, not some off the wall third party candidate.
Also Biden’s policies resonate with Democrats AND Republicans. Our oligarch owned MSM doesn’t do ANY favors for Joe Biden.Yeah, I really hope Biden wins. I don’t want my American partners to be genocided.
CNN and mainstream media has deluded liberals into believing Hillary is actually a viable candidate.
It’s messianic thinking for people who think they’re smarter than most Christians.
If I ever tell you who to vote for, don’t listen to me. -B. Sanders
He’d be disappointed that, despite all his educational efforts, you still fucking refuse to think for yourself.
That’s not a true quote.
Content wasn’t important, only this. I understand.
likeability issues
Is that what we call white supremacism these days? A “likeability issue?”
Hilary Clinton is white lmfao what are you talking about?
Hilary Clinton is white
Gee… what tipped you off? Was it when she started spouting white supremacist “super-predator” narratives, or did you clock her beforehand?
Silly me, I must have been confusing that with Bernie Sanders and the “low information” voters that weren’t crazy about a white guy from Vermont lol
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I voted Hilary because lesser of two evils. But I despise her snake in the grass ass! And me not liking her has absolutely nothing to do with her gender.
But you are right that there are many that hate on a strong, vocal female (AOC).
There are still many strong females out there that would have done better than Hillary and would make great leaders
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Pretending that the problems with Hillary Clinton is her garbage girlboss-feminism and not the fact that she’s a white supremacist arch-colonialist and warmonger that was literally mentored by the US’s very own Heinrich Himmler-level war criminal is peak white liberalism.
It’s amazing people don’t see this for the propaganda it is coming from this user.
Glad Sync has the ability to tag users
Not like you really need it with that one. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a bigger red flag name.
Legitimately, they have an entire video sub where the spam garbage.
Removed by mod
Everyone who doesn’t vote for Genocide Joe is a Russian troll!
Good luck in the Blue MAGA echo chamber.
There are useful tools as well. Like you. Not everyone is paid opposition. But we all know this is your go to strawman when you have no actual response.
DNC gets caught committing fraud in their own primary
“No obviously it’s because not enough people voted for Bernie in the primary”
mmm yes I wonder why that is
Bernie was winning until the DNC called in the media assasination and started cooking numbers.
Remember when Chris Matthews lost his fucking mind and started claiming that a sanders presidency would mean executions in Central Park.
It is so frustrating sometimes talking about the history I lived through with people on this site. They will straight faced tell you how “no one beat Biden in the primaries this year” or “sanders has his chance to win but lost”
One candidate has the backing of the DNC and the corporate media which hammers nonstop about how voting for sanders is voting for socialist death squads and he is unelectable. I’m sure that had no impact on the voters though. Billy and Bonnie msnbc watcher probably saw that clip and fully understood the complex nuances of who owns msnbc, what their motivations are, and could understand why one of the 4 media conglomerates might be a bit concerned about their profit machine getting disrupted. They certainly wouldn’t take 24/7 coverage about how unelectable and dangerous he is to heart.
…and the last minute rule changes in Nevada
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Everything would be perfect! And we would all be happy!
Parallel universe horseshit is really enlightened and helpful!
Gore v Bush would like a word. We gotta stop “electing” Republicans cause then some wild shit happens to America.
If Gore had not been blocked from the presidency by Jeb Bush’s Florida (with its’ goddamned hanging chads in the ballot) and the right wing Supreme Court purposely dragging its’ feet then saying “there is no time”:
- The threat of hijacking airplanes would have been taken seriously.
- Iraq would NOT have been invaded, 9/11 or no 9/11.
- The Kyoto Protocol (greenhouse emissions treaty) would have been honored instead of dumped, which is what baby bush did.
- The Army Corp Of Engineers would have had resources for dike maintenance in New Orleans leading up to Hurricane Katrina, instead of going on pointless errands in Iraq.
These are but a few of the major sliding door points, there are MANY others.
Yet lazy, stubbornly ignorant narcissistic idiots still insisted and to this day insist that bOtH pArTiEs ArE tHe SaMe LoL aMiRiTe.These non-voters see their blood-soaked hands and sigh in contentment at their mediocre idea of purity.
Gore lost the election for a lot of reasons and Florida was certainly the most important, but honestly it’s the electoral college. No one wants a far right president but they don’t have a choice because 10% of the electorate has completely overtaken the Republican party and it’s just MAGA now.
The Electoral College is the root of a fuckton of problems.
If you can become president without winning the popular vote, it’s a big fucking problem.
It gives a disproportionate weight to small states, where their vote is worth more than bigger states.
There’s definitely issues with the EC, but you’re bringing up a feature not a bug.
The executive branch wasn’t supposed to be an extension of the legislative. The office of the president wasn’t supposed to be a “super duper senator”. The blame for where we’re at is entirely in a defunct congress. With a presidential office that is genuinely executing, not the forefront of, legislation, the checks and balances in congress start to make a lot more sense.
And regardless of the way it’s supposed to be, we’ve got to work with what we’ve got, I get that. But the US is huge and wildly different. I’m not particularly rural, but took a friend of mine born and raised in NYC out to a friends cabin once. Offered to give em a ride on the ATV. They were excited, I grabbed my jacket, and came out to them sitting on the ride-on lawnmower, all ready to go. To flip it around, I have very little business giving an opinion on what minimum wage in a major metro should be (although after a recent visit to sanfran my guess is about $1,000/hr…).
My point being, an over correction the EC will 1) see a ton of opposition that makes it unfeasible, and 2) ultimately be fairly destructive. The challenges in different parts of this country are worlds apart, and we do a TERRIBLE job understanding one another, mostly by design because it helps reelection. Threatening the EC without a replacement that takes the concerns of otherwise under-represented folks into consideration will feed into this partisan crap more that it has already, entrench identity politics further, and just accelerate things.
I have no solution for this.
Other countries have solutions for the issue. The Constitution can be amended, it’s going to take a lot of work.
Oh I don’t disagree, it can be done and is clearly an issue, I just think we have to be careful on how. The EU probably has good framework given how different it’s members are
To those who disagree here are some articles from 2016
https://observer.com/2016/10/wikileaks-reveals-dnc-elevated-trump-to-help-clinton/
https://www.cnn.com/2016/06/06/politics/superdelegates-hillary-clinton-nomination/index.html
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2016/07/25/dnc-betrayed-bernie-sanders-and-the-rest-of-america/
They really did think people were happy with how things had been going the last eight years.
The Obama-Trump voter clearly remains beyond the comprehension of a lot of people.
There’s nothing to comprehend. They don’t understand how things work. And can’t commit for any length of time. They want change. But Democrats having to fix Republican damage struggle to do much else. So they figure that they will vote for the opposition. But the opposition always makes things worse. So they vote for Democrats to fix and change things. Democrats start to fix things but they don’t do it fast enough so they vote for the opposition. In the opposition makes things worse so they vote for Democrats to fix it and change things. The Democrats fix things as much as they can but they can’t change anything so they vote for the opposition etc etc etc.
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“It was the DNC!”
Oh cool, here I thought it was three and a half million Dem voters who were more right-wing than Bernie.
I voted for Bernie. I marched for Bernie. I donated to Bernie. I love Bernie, he’s a fighter and an idealist, and the world would be better if politicians like him had more influence.
But the reason he lost in 2016 wasn’t because of some nebulous DNC conspiracy. It’s because this is still a very right-wing electorate, even in the Democratic Party (and especially in 2016), something critics are all-too-eager to point out at every moment in time except when it offers an opportunity to denigrate the legitimacy of the less-right-wing party running.
Curious.
This article is old, but a good read: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/11/14/16640082/donna-brazile-warren-bernie-sanders-democratic-primary-rigged
The 2016 Democratic primary wasn’t rigged by the DNC, and it certainly wasn’t rigged against Sanders. But Democratic elites did try to make Clinton’s nomination as inevitable, as preordained, as possible. And the party is still managing the resentment that engendered in voters. “Once somebody doesn’t trust you,” sighs Buckley, the New Hampshire Democratic chair, “it’s very hard to get that trust back.”
The DNC did mess with the 2016 preselections, but the article argues that that probably benefited Sanders, by giving him much more of a platform than he would otherwise have had.
But it also seems like a footgun for the democrats as a whole, and probably contributed to the 2016 anti-establishment vibe that led to the Trump win
You need to understand the mentality. If they like something, then everyone in the whole world must like it, too.
If people think it was the DNC all I’ll say is “could be”. The main stream media very much did Bernie dirty. If they reported on Bernie’s campaign at all, it was to essentially mention that he was not a real candidate. They never reported on the massive rally turnouts he was having. If people consuming MSM saw how much energy was in the Bernie campaign I would bet that would have gotten more people interested in his message and to the primary to vote for him.
We know. Doesn’t matter until we have ranked choice or the like. Only one side gives us even a glimmer of a chance at that, so we have one choice.
You won’t have ranked choice (or any other kind of vote) if you don’t vote.
I support ranked choice, but I don’t see how that’s relevant here.
That is part of the problem…
Protest no voting is the reason why Hillary isn’t finishing up her second term, with a solid 8 years of climate action, still having Roe, likely much better budget, likely hundreds of thousands of lives saved from covid, not facing project 2025, and who knows what else. Thanks protest no voters.
Hillary is the reason there were protest votes and general voter apathy.
She instructed her media cronies to promote Trump as the front runner, and also ran a rigged primary that stonewalled all attempts for competition to get a word in edgewise.
She knew how much of a threat Trump was, and yet she persisted in incompetently throwing what should have been the easiest Democratic win in history, with her fucking meddling.
It’s a shame that the only way to destroy the Democratic party is to kill the Republican party first, but alas, business always comes before pleasure, doesn’t it.
Hillary lined Trump up as her rival thinking he’d be an easy win, not realizing that she was still Hillary Clinton, the only one who could possibly lose against the least likable candidate in human history.
Hillary was family friends with Henry Kissinger.
Literally enough said.
it really should have been enough -_-
Her candidacy was america’s biggest mistake since the republican party cheated Teddy Roosevelt out of their nomination and got us stuck with fucking woodrow wilson - the trump of the early 20th century.
Yeah no shit people no vote protested, that was my whole point. And how did that work out? Not very well huh. Thanks no vote protesters!
You want to be effective in moving things left? You do that by voting for the Dems. Every time they lose, they go to the center to find voters.
And then they still lose because no one’s going to pick Diet Republican over the real deal.
Except Bill Clinton won. Biden won. They learned from Carter and Hillary Clinton respectively to not stick your neck out. Even Obama was running on broad and vague “hope” instead of actually saying anything specific. Obama learned that from Gore losing, to not actually say anything and stick your neck out. So no, you have it backwards. They win when they go to the center.
How did Gore stick his neck out? That election was a long time ago, but I don’t remember Gore being some kind of radical.
Gore, who was famously a climate advocate, yes before and after the election. Hmmmm let me think about that.
presses X to Doubt
You doubt that Bill Clinton won? You doubt that Biden won? What is going on here. They won, and they won by going to the center.
And lol 5 downvotes for me and 5 up for you in half an hour on a 2 day old thread. Not sus at all lol.
No I doubt that they won because of appealing to centrist when we keep seeing in House/Senate races that actual Leftists keep beating Diet Republicans and Real Republicans… also keep beating Diet Republicans.
And if you’re accusing me of something, just come out and say it.
Biden won because Trump fumbled COVID so badly. Also, whining about downvotes makes you look worse, not better.
They go to the right to get voters, regardless of whether they win or lose.
Boy 3 messages from you.
I think I’ll just pull up my history writeup for you:
Ok I’ve had this conversation and realized that people can’t do the math. So lets do it:
Let’s evaluate the last say 24 years and when the Dems had all 3 of the House of Representatives, Senate, and Presidency. Note they need all 3 to pass pretty much anything. Obama had it for 2 out of 8 years. Biden had it for 2 out of 4 years. Let’s add it: That means Dems had control for 4 out of 24 years. Read that again, they had control for only 4 the last 24 years.
And that can still be filibustered. So if you want the filibuster proof majority, then Obama had it for 4 months. Not years, MONTHS. Biden never had it. Add it up: Dems had filibuster proof control for 4 months of the last 24 years.
Look at those stats again: Dems had control for 4 years of the last 24 years. For filibuster proof control, Dems had control for 4 MONTHS of the last 24 years.
This is why Dems compromise, because they basically never have control. To get literally anything done they need to compromise. Take your pick, either 4 years of the last 24 fucking years, or the 4 months or the last 24 years. And you wonder why they have to compromise? And why they go to the centre?
If you want progress you have to give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.
(Want to add Bill Clinton? That goes to 6 years of the last 32 years, and still 4 months for filibuster proof for the last 32 fucking years. Want to add Bush senior? Then it’s 6 years of the last 36 fucking years. Want to add Reagan? Then it’s 6 years of the last 44 years. That’s right, 6 years out of the last 44 fucking years that Dems had control. And for filibuster proof majority they had 4 months of the last 44 fucking years.)
And you wonder why they go to the center to find voters? Because they never win. The left never shows up.
More than that. Protest voting only works if you’re vote is important to them. If you aren’t a representative part of a large group of reliable voters or donors. THEY DON’T REALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR VOTE. If courting you would help their margin of victory. But might alienate other more reliable voters or donors. THEY DON’T REALLY CARE ABOUT YOUR VOTE. If they don’t really care about your vote. Then they don’t really care about your protest. Then your protest is pointless and counterproductive.
As cruel and heartless as it sounds. Resources and bandwidth are always limited. They have to put their attention and efforts where they think they will get the best payout. Trying to please a broad swath of fickle unreliable left-leaning voters generally falls outside of the good uses of those limited resources.
Literally our passive leftist protest voting is meaningless to them. Even if they lose. Meaningless to them. They will spend millions of dollars analyzing trying to figure out why otherwise reliable group didn’t vote for them. If they hear that they didn’t get leftist vote, they won’t bat an eye.
If we want their attention. If we want their concern. We need to ingratiate ourselves. And make ourselves indisposable to them. We need some primary them. We need to replace them with ourselves. Then they will pay attention. Then they will care. Before we do any of that though. Protest voting and putting the car before the horse and completely useless.
I agree and say it all the time: When Dems lose, they go to the center to find voters. They are the voters that actually show up.
Hillary should never have been on the primary ticket much less in the final race.
“I don’t like Hilary so I’ll protest no vote! Let’s see what that gets us.” Yeah, take a look at what it got you.
If you’re going to what if, if the DNC leadership wasn’t caught off guard by Obama’s popularity in 2008. They would of railroaded him like they did Sanders.
Then we would have had 8 years of McCain because Hillary was and is un-electable.
The only way in hell I’d ever vote for Hillary, was if the other guy was Literally Hitler.
Trump was close enough to that description, so I voted for Hillary.
But yeah, even back then she was still trying the “Bernie Bro.” line… course back then they were “Obama Boys”
You’re whatifing hard about primaries. I’m informing what happens when the left voters don’t show up.
Every single time the left voters don’t show up, the Overton window goes to the right when the GOP wins, and again when the Dems go to the center to find voters (because the left never shows up). And then people ask why the Dems keep going to the center.
You can’t have it both ways. You’re arguing the Democrats simultaneously don’t care about leftist voters because they don’t show up and vote and aren’t a significant enough chunk of the electorate to be worth catering to, yet claiming that this same group not showing up resulted in Hillary’s loss against Trump. Which is it? Are we the deciding factor in US electoral politics, or a bunch of rabble-rousers not worth concerning yourself with?
The reality is that Clinton lost the election due to extremely narrow margins in a handful of flyover states not known for being bastions of leftism. Leftists of Lemmy in LA or NYC could have all gone for voter fraud and voted for her multiple times, and she still would not have received any more votes in the electoral college from California or New York, because she already got them all! Conversely, she wouldn’t have gotten any fewer votes in Michigan, Pennsylvania or Wisconsin, which were the decisive states at the level of the Electoral College because of leftists in other states.
tl;dr: Get lost with your ahistorical, left punching bullshit.
They exist, but they don’t show up (or very rarely if you want to be specific). And because they don’t show up, they aren’t courted. This is really simple.
So the Dems go to the center to find voters. Because the left doesn’t show up. No one is going to court the left that doesn’t show up.
amen
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Sanders supporters, Hilary supporters, Obama supporters, like how many hoops do you have to jump through to divvy things up? I’m not even going to try to figure that out. This is really simple, I’m saying the left voters need to show up. How many are there? Who knows, because they never show up.
Hilary promised free ice cream and puppies for everyone. Protest no voters are the reason why I’m not enjoying a cone with my puppy new best friend right now.
And your 4th message to me is not worth trying to sort out.
“A presidential election is not a Grammy Award contest for the best singer or entertainer. It’s about who has the best policies that impact our lives,” Sanders said. “I’m going to do everything I can to see that Biden gets reelected.” - https://apnews.com/article/biden-debate-democrats-trump-trapped-c10c872f8436966096b45b6089adee8b
Considering Mitch McConnell blocked Obama’s last supreme court nomination for over a year until Trump was in office, changed senate rules to help nominate Gorsuch, and fast-tracked ACB at the end of Trump’s term, anyone blaming the DNC for the current state of the supreme court is being completely disingenuous.
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So, the Republicans keep doing terrible things, and the Democrats either can’t or won’t stop them.
The republicans have been voting in lockstep to block pretty much everything that the democrats have tried to get passed. Why are you trying to both sides this rather than giving an actual solution?
The actual solution is to vote Green.
Accelerationism isn’t the answer.
I love how the narrative focuses on 2016 and not 2020, where he lost all on his own.
Dude had a heart attack in 2020, that takes it out of you.
Nah, he lost because the people that are still posting this shit didn’t spend half the energy turning put to vote in the primaries that they do complaining about everyone who did.
Anyone else remember how “low information voters” kept coming up whenever the significantly black state primaries swung for Clinton or Biden?
Are you forgetting all the primaries Sanders won early? Are you intentionally ignoring the orchestrated dropouts and back room deals that allowed the centrist wing of the party to coalesce behind Biden at the exact moment he needed them to? You must be because all you’re talking about here is the great liberal paradise of South Carolina. How many EC votes did Biden win for taking SC? Oh yeah, zero because it’s a red state that doesn’t vote for Democrats in the general election but for some reason people like you love to point at it and pretend that a black Democrat in the South is the primary target of a DNC Presidential campaign.
Don’t forget to add the superdelegate party bullshit.
Lol y’all are hilarious
I love this kvetch that basically amounts to "it’s unfair that the centrists realized they had a combined majority and then acted like it!"
Your key accusation is an admission that the man was not even a winner among the party he was running in and that the only reason he was doing so well was because of the spoiler effect.
1912 must look like the most legit election in American history to you! 40% of the popular vote is plenty of a mandate for ol’ Wilson!
Had Bernie had the same turnout in a system that isn’t ass backwards like FPTP he would never have been able to escape second place in any of the primaries.
You and I both know that the DNC exploits the system they created at every opportunity, often against the wishes of a majority of voters, in order to help centrists maintain control of the party. If you want to equate a closed primary process with a national general election in order to feel better about supporting anti-democrtatic power consolidation then that is your choice to make but it isn’t the same and somewhere in that brain of yours you fucking know it. That’s exactly why you will say stuff like “people didn’t show up in the primaries” and completely gloss over all the polling that says they would have in the general election.
I’ll never understand this “centrists win elections” take either. Obama ran on a progressive platform and won handily twice in a row. Yet as soon as his 2nd term was over you guys went back to saying progressives can’t win elections as if the previous 8 years were a fluke instead of a roadmap for future campaigns. That makes no fucking sense at all. Now here we are getting ready to blame everyone who doesn’t want to work with literal fascists for losing this election when all you guys need to do is listen to polling and get out of the god damn way.
That dude has had this exact conversation like 10 different times on here and ever time they come up against the same talking points of like, superdelegates or backroom deals or whatever, they mostly just don’t respond at all. They’re not a serious interlocutor, you’re wasting your breath.
It’s cool. At this point I generally assume that whoever I’m talking to on the internet is not interested in having an actual conversation which means what I say is mostly for the benefit of anyone else reading. If it turns into a productive discussion that’s just an added bonus. Maybe that’s too pessimistic but it usually keeps me from being overly confrontational and that’s a good thing.
Nah, I do the same thing, I’ve just mostly learned that even any external observer is likely to not care either, so instead of doing it for a theoretical person out there, I’ve learned that I’m just secretly doing it because I want to feed my worst instincts.
An establishment cheerleader accusing the left of being condescending. That’s hilarious.
It’s good Lemmy is keeping me up to date on Russia’s stance on US politics.
Apparently Putin is getting all of his minions to encourage voter apathy.
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While he got somewhere around 50% support among democrats that vote in primaries while running against Hilary Clinton, I don’t think it’s a given he could get centrists that vote in the general to vote for him.
I know it makes for a better narrative that Bernie could’ve been President, but that’s all it is, a narrative.
But that’s what Russian propaganda always is, isn’t it? Just narratives, no actual facts.
Obligatory (flashing lights epilepsy warning):
I love how the same people who bitch about swapping out Bernie Sanders for being too old are the same ones bitching about not swapping out Joe Biden.
Look. Figure out his age and get the Harris/Ocasio-Cortez government in after the election when the latter half can assume the VP spot for the first of her 4 terms. No one has any illusions about who’s gonna be in power after this is done, which is why the fat, old, rich, lazy, white, men are whipping their moron followers into a frenzy to prevent this regime change.
Snowden is a Kremlin asset.
