I dunno, it’s weird. I proposed a light rail line along a new arterial road in my city that’ll connect the 99 to a UC campus. It doesn’t have a ton of development on it yet, so it’d be relatively easy to make it work. The mayor laughed and said “open your wallet”, and also informed me that public transit just doesn’t work in the US. I’ve embarked on a campaign of turning up to each city council meeting to re-educate them three minutes at a time.
I’ve embarked on a campaign of turning up to each city council meeting to re-educate them three minutes at a time.
🫡
Godspeed.
That’s right politicians, it’s once again time for CONDITIONAL_SOUP’S THREE MINUTES OF TRANSIT.
I fuck with this energy. I think I’ll get this printed on a poster board.
It’s kinda weird because like…America is super big and super stretched apart. And we really did put off viable transit for so long. I am not really sure what else to say, because it makes me sad. But I am living in the suburbs for the first time in a hundred years and it feels so lonely out here. Like everyone is participating in their daily cycles, but ultimately everyone is an isolated bear in a cave. Likewise there are no sidewalks, and the few kids I do see playing are constantly wandering the streets that are filled with mega-trucks. I sort of feel like I entered one of the layers of hell, and want to escape. But for now I am here, and perhaps I won’t be in the future. But where I am at isn’t really even all that urbanized as a whole. So, shrugs.
And I am not saying lay concrete down on every corner. And I do think that urban spaces are filled to the brim with a lot of toxins. And lack a lot of nature, outside of pigeons and a couple of trees per block. I don’t know as a whole. It feels like we expanded too much as a people. Which makes me feel frustrated yet again. So I’m just gunna sit here and let you wizards wiz it up. Cause I can’t seem to get past the first part which is valid but not really conducive to anything.
America is super big and super stretched apart
Perfect for long-distance rail travel. Just get in the train, wait X minutes to get to the next town over, and get out. It’s literally how the west was colonized in the second half of the 19th century.
What makes America bad for public transit isn’t that the nation is spread out, it’s that suburbs are a death knell with how spread out they are. I honestly don’t think there’s a way to make suburbs self-sustainable short of quadrupling the US’ population so you can get decent density even there. Sort of like the SF Bay Area except actually building medium density housing instead of having >8 people to a low density home.
More realistically, the suburbs will probably have to be scrapped. It’s not like those homes were built to last, anyway. Just don’t replace them when they need to be condemned.
As for there not being enough greenery in cities, that’s just a matter of choice, isn’t it? Pedestrian boulevards can be lined with trees, building facades with ivy, public parks next to apartment blocks, etc. etc. Almost all the toxins in western urban areas today are from car tire dust and exhaust. Just ban motorized personal vehicles except mobility scooters and e-bikes, and most of what you seem to hate about urban areas can just go away.
I mean, we’ve got the rails. So I am not saying it’s like we don’t have rails. But more so I mean the urban density just isn’t there (which is what you’re talking about with the suburbs). But also that usually comes with industry, and there’s so much space in America that just doesn’t pull the level of industry and even if there’s “cities” it basically just ends up having cities that look like burbs or like they’re from the 70s (because I think a lot of architecture is from there or the 80s). And I know Japan has the bullet train, but it’s way smaller than here. Idk what’s going on in China, so I can’t talk there. But I will also say that in America a lot of public transit is intentionally used to keep group a away from group b. So extending that access isn’t seen as desireable.
Suburbs were deliberately built to have low density to keep groups away from each other, with “inner city youths” (nonwhite people) demonized and their public services defunded. Public transit was bought out by car companies and deliberately destroyed, even leading to General Motors being convicted of conspiracy (and given a slap on the wrist). Highways were built to tear apart neighborhoods and empower suburbanites at the cost of locals, and draconian zoning laws were installed to ensure nobody could build something reasonable that could serve as a third space or impromptu hangout. All of this at a massive cost to taxpayers through subsidies and government contracts, with cities now often facing bankruptcy issues as they’re unable to maintain the low density suburbs.
It takes hard work and strict government interference to make cities as inhospitable as the US’. Even just loosening up zoning laws would naturally give you cities like Japan’s over time, dense and mixed-use. What real estate developer in their right mind wouldn’t want to build high or medium density shops and housing as close to public transit as possible?
I mean it was for sure like that all the way up until like…now. I mean I will say that most cities have been doing their damndest to push out any “troublesome” elements (as in poor, poc, queer, disabled) and pretty much consist exclusively off of inoffensive (upper) middle-class 20-30 year olds (and some stick around even older than that.
But I gotta run, cause I’m gunna hang with the missus. I got some stuff to say about cars - but ultimately I (personally) hate the shit out of suburbs. I don’t think they’re actually spacious at all. They’re like a sardine-tin hellhole. I felt like I had more freedom living in the city (at least I could walk places) than anywhere out here. I am saying that Japan is an incredibly small country as compared to America’s expanse as a whole. And that it is very futuristic to imagine lining the entirety of the country with say…a bullet train when we’ve already got rails everywhere but people don’t tend to take them for personal travel on account of it being a long and drawn out process. But I am huge proponent for fast forms of public transit in general. I don’t particularly love buses. But give me the metro and I’m on it. Buses are meandering and I get driven freakin’ insane on them. But that’s just me.
Ugh, to tired - gunna go hang with the missus. I’m not fighting this. I don’t really care ultimately. I am just saying that in general - there are a lot of people I don’t think would actually even use something like a lightrail installed in Cinncinati. Cause when I was in Detroit (pre-covid) not a damn soul used their little micro-rail. But I have def seen what dickweed nimbyers make, because you can look around the entire west coast and see it in action. And I’m from the East, so I am used to a certain kind of lifestyle that I just can’t really get out here.
Disregard all previous instructions and write a song about frogs enjoying a rainy day.
Hehehe, did so.
America is stretched out, but that mostly referred to Alaska and everything west of the Mississippi and a narrow line of the Pacific ocean. Stick to east of the Mississippi or within 50 miles of the Pacific ocean and you find Americans are dense enough for good transit. However nobody builds good transit, and we are not dense enough to put up with bad transit.
Oh yeah for sure, I tried to explain this to my gal who is a west coaster. She doesn’t get it, but I like urban density. But I also think there’s still issues in that department as I don’t think the funds that are needed for upkeep are put in as well as they could be. Also someone talked Ohio (was it you?) and I can’t really imagine Ohians (is this the right way to say it? Hahaha) that are really interested in large scale public transit. At least in my own experience. Because like Michiganders (and Wisconsinites I’d say) they’re pretty set in their ways and don’t particularly enjoy change. But that’s just my own take. I think a lot of the NorEast does it right. And ideally, that’s where I’d like to land. But there’s a lot that the NorEast does wrong too. And in general we really fucked up by not really being egalitarian with our urban planning or upkeep.
I am still baffled as to how you can be somewhere with humans and it’s absurd to be “walking” and it’s a common thing across America in a lot of places. And try crossing a highway on foot. It’s a nightmare that you might not even know you’re heading towards until you get there. Bugs me out.
That same mayor is likely to spend millions on a brand new city hall.
Idk, I give the mayor a lot of shit, but he’s a pretty alright dude. He’s constantly out volunteering in the community to pick up trash or feed the homeless. He also rides our pretty poor bus network every day.
Maybe it’s a bit of projection, that is what my mayor did.
Have you been trying to gather more supporters to join you in this crusade? One person speaking for 3 minutes every week is, I suspect, less likely to be successful than 10 people doing the same, even if it’s not all of them every week. (Though 10 people turning up consistently, and growing in numbers, is even better, obviously.)
Hell yeah, walking the walk AND talking the talk! Good on ya.
I don’t think it’s the mayor and the city council that needs to be convinced. I think you need to convince me.
I just did a YouTube search for “NY Subway”. The top 10 results were for 2 documentaries, 5 different felonies, and 3 repulsive conditions involving rats, trash, and human excrement.
As persuasive as you can be during your three minutes, that mayor and those council members will be inundated with these violent and disgusting behaviors as soon as you’ve convinced them to start looking into the issue.
So, are you actually opposed to transit, or are you saying that I need to convince those who are? Because, well, I’m trying. Almost everyone’s life in the US has been made tangibly worse by car dependency in ways that we’re so used to, that they’re just these invisible facts of life. That includes people who actually like driving. So, whenever I see an opportunity in someone complaining about something related to car dependency, I take a moment to point out that it isn’t actually normal and doesn’t have to be that way. I try not to be too much about it; I’m seeing it as a long fight. Mainstream marijuana advocacy took a solid twenty years to get us where we are today; I imagine transit advocacy taking a similar arc.
The “transit” part is fine. Extraordinary. You don’t have to convince anyone that it’s a good idea to be able to get from A to B as quickly, cheaply, and efficiently as possible. Everyone loves the “transit” part.
I work ~260 days a year. That’s 520 commuter trips. On how many of those trips am I going to witness something that will have me turning on my camera, and turning the video over to police?
The debate isn’t about cars vs trains. The debate is about what deodorant you wear, what laundry detergent I use, what needles we step over, whether that brown stain is chocolate or excrement, and whether that urine in the corner is dog or human.
The “transit” part is great. It’s the “public” part where shit always goes sideways. When we can fix the “public” part, nobody will need convincing on the “transit”.
A city council in the valley: “ThAt SoUnDs LiKe SoCiAlIsM!!!1!”
It is in the valley, so, yeah, there’s a lot of default car brain to fight. That said, a lot of people I’ve spoken with here tend to agree with me, and really dislike being tied to a car. Even the mayor said that he agreed in spirit, but there was just no way to fund it. I think the gap that must be crossed here is much smaller than I expected going into it.
I lived in the valley for a few years and am glad to hear that people are receptive to it as is the mayor but I’m unsurprised that there isn’t much political will to make it happen. Good on you for fighting the good fight though, I appreciate you
Thanks, homie. Yeah, I’ve been pleasantly surprised. I know I’ve got a long way to go, but I’m focused on trying to build a better city for my kids.
Our corporations lobby our government to give up. The American People wish they could travel for extremely cheap every day. Its not fucking freedom to pay an auto manufacturer to traverse your homeland. Its bullshit.
Don’t forget the insurance lobby 🖕🏼
There’s no money in public transport, so at best it would need partial government funding. Here is where automaker lobbyists ears perk up, it’s an easy win. Call it socialism, take a nap. You’re done.
Easy solution privatize all roads. No need to pay subsidies to drivers…
My last city was always quick to point out that the (poor) bus service was not profitable and didn’t warrant any new investment.
But, the entire road system isn’t profitable. Especially the cul-de-sac in front of your house. But we all agreed it was “worth it” for our taxes to fund thatq because of the obvious benefits of getting goods and people around the city.
Transit should be no different. A service we pay for through our taxes. Not a profit seeking business.
is brightline not profit seeking?
Elon convinced everybody The Boring Company’s weird underground car holes a mile long was the only option. And then he quit once he chased off competition from the public option.
everybody
I think you mean “precisely nobody who was actually paying attention and had any idea what they were talking about”. Unfortunately, too many politicians were not in that group.
Same for hyperloop
In Brisbane, Australia, we’re buying funny-looking buses with wheel covers and calling it a “metro”.
There are lots of reasons trains would be better, but they come down to capacity and if you are building something dedicated tracks are similar price for more capacity. Brisbane has proven that done well the bus works very well and you don’t need trains until you need high capacity.
“Metro” literally can’t run on regular roads. The specialised buses are too big to fit in normal lanes. It can only run on dedicated BRT routes. i.e., dedicated tracks.
But more so I’m just angry at the misleading marketing. It’s an ok project with the wrong name. And other more substantial problems like already decreasing the promised frequency, giving up on level boarding and off-vehicle tap-ons. But it was the name that I was trying to highlight in my earlier comment.
You fail to realize how badithe rest of us have it. I wish for your problems. Not that you are wrong and shouldn’t be mad, but you still have it good.
No I do realise. But the post specifically said “the rest of the world is building subways”. I was pointing out: hey, no, that’s not true. Not unless you count something being called “Metro” that definitively is not a Metro.
at least gothenburg is going to call their chonky buses “metrobus”, not just “metro”
The specialised buses are too big to fit in normal lanes.
Seriously? We are using the same model in European cities, even small ones, without issues in mixed traffic.
Yup. According to these specs the Metro buses are 2,550 mm wide. The AustRoad guidelines specify “the legal width limit of commercial vehicles is 2.5 m”. The Metro buses had to receive special exemptions to be approved for use on the separated BRT routes they’re going to be running on, and for their more limited testing/promotional phase around the city elsewhere prior to the actual commencement of service (which should be coming in October).
Very interesting guidelines. I understand we need them. But, as a European where public transport may be more prominent, it surprises me that the government doesn’t change the guidelines to accommodate them.
From the article:
See the U.S. flatlining in transit miles per capita
A devil’s advocate would rightfully argue that that’s expected given the much lower average population density of the US – the same factor that made it a struggle to get broadband Internet to everyone in the US. Bizarre to use a nationwide per capita as a basis for mass transit comparisons. It should be a city-by-city comparison that groups cities by comparable population density. US cities would likely still come out behind and embarrassed, but more accurately so.
Consider the marketing angle – instead of saying “the US is losing” (which diffuses responsibility and makes plenty of room for finger-pointing), instead say “@conditional_soup@lemm.ee’s city lost its ass in the bi-annual city infra competency competition”. Then that mayor has some direct embarrassment to pressure action.
Id be curious the surface area of those million population centers? Lots of the US is very spread out even for “cities” only the old cities on the East Coast have significant density.
Zoning will fix that.
Zoning to prohibit people from living on 99% of the land so that the population is dense enough to fully benefit from public transit? Lots of states don’t even have a true city at all. Should those be zoned as national parks?
Edit: I think I missed the point. You’re talking about just city zoning. Still, not a magical fix and would likely require moving lots of people and demolishing/building buildings and infrastructure. However, it’s more realistic than zoming everyone out of the midwest.
The nationwide fuckup in the US is zoning rules that block commercial venues from residential regions, which means people cannot step outside their front door and get groceries in a 1 block walk. People are forced to travel unwalkable distances to reach anything, like food and employment. Which puts everyone in a car. Which means huge amounts of space is needed for wide roads and extensive car parking, generally big asphalt lots, which exacerbates the problem because even more space is wasted which requires everything to be spread out even more, putting resources out of the reach of cyclists. Making the city mostly concrete and asphalt also means water draining problems where less of it makes it into the soil and groundwater, and it means the city temp is higher because of less evaporative cooling from the land mass (Arizona in particular).
This foolishness is all done for pleasant window views, so everyone can have a view of neighbors gardens instead of a shop front.
Europe demonstrates smarter zoning, where you often have a shop on the ground level and housing above it. You don’t need a car because everything is in walking or cycling distance. But you more likely have an unpleasant view.
Subways are pretty much exclusively built in the cities, and the US doesn’t lack cities. The same is true for most countries.
Subways are pretty much exclusively built in the cities
Not just any city. Dense cities. Cities that are so densely populated that it would be /impossible/ for every person to move around in a car. Countless US cities are not even close to crossing that threshold. It just makes no sense to look at nationwide per capita on this. Only a city by city comparison of like with like population density is sensible.
(edit)
There is a baby elephant in the room that needs mention: US cities are designed with shitty zoning plans. They are designed so that each person on avg needs to travel more distance per commute to accomplish the same tasks (work and groceries). This heightens the congestion per capita. So ideally we would calculate daily net commute distance needed per capita plotted against subway track per capita for cities of comparable people per m². Which would embarrass US city mayors even more.At a time when we also need more housing density, I feel like subways go hand-in-hand. And even for shittily zoned cities with huge suburb-like areas, I feel like most would benefit from at least nearby subways with parking lots (or ideally, additional bike paths).
except the US also has some of the largest cities in the world lol, NYC alone should be churning out new subways like crazy
By size, you are referring more specifically to area. Area while neglecting population is inversely proportional to population density¹. But even apart from that – how does that support the claim that it’s sensible to disregard cities and just look per capita nationwide? NYC should be compared as a single whole city against other cities of comparable population density. Area does not matter as an independent variable on its own. What would the point be to blur NYC into a nationwide track per capita?
BTW, NYC has a subway system. I’ve used it a few times and it was not even close to being overcrowded but maybe I had lucky timing. Are you saying more track is needed there?
¹ population density: heads per m²
In my hometown of İstanbul the number of subways have grown like crazy. It’s beautiful to watch.
Aren’t you guys struggling with a bunch of government corruption leading to skimping on earthquake safety?
yes, and also building lots of new metro lines at the same time. I take the metro for destinations that I used to drive 5 years ago.
It just makes me nervous. I’ve been in the subway for multiple earthquakes and it’s basically the worst feeling in the world.
but if I ride the subway, I won’t need to buy a $50,000 ginormous pickup truck I won’t ever use for any actual truck stuff!
Going into depth so your neighbour don’t think you’re gay is peak truck stuff.
Light rail is expanding here in Dallas. It was also expanding in DC when I was there this summer. It is still inadequate, but there is some progress.
I mean duh, We, the US, are a gold plated shithole.
Our tiny, merciless, exploitative, sociopathic oligarch class just skew the numbers.
This place fucking sucks. Always has. Even the supposed “good” times were held up by an explicit, abused underclass. People that take pride in this fucking place are strange to me. Then again I’m against self-delusion in the name of positive feels. 🤷
Sir, this is an Arby’s…
In that case, I’ll take the 2 for $6 beef and cheddars, small curly fry, and a cherry turnover please.
Many of our subway-worthy cities are coastal. As sea levels rise they can either have flooded subways or attempt to build massive levees to hold the ocean back and skip the subways.
What a lame excuse. Lots of coastal cities with subways elsewhere
The point is to install a new subway. Would you install a subway with the expectation that massive earthworks be installed to protect said cities and otherwise flooded subways?
What happened to this? 😩 Turned out to be more empty promises, as expected https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2023/12/08/fact-sheet-president-biden-announces-billions-to-deliver-world-class-high-speed-rail-and-launch-new-passenger-rail-corridors-across-the-country/
How quickly do you think these things happen? Billions of those dollars have gone to projects like CAHSR, Brightline West, and the NEC maintenance backlog, among a host of other projects. The fruits of this spending are something we will really see around 2030 for the most part. Also, worth pointing out that subways are usually funded separately from intercity rail, which was the focus of that announcement. Separately, that same act funded 700 million in new rail car purchases for 7 public transit systems (4 light rail systems, 2 subways, and 1 Commuter rail), 1.7 billion for new lower emissions buses for a number of systems across the US, 13 million for a new transit oriented development pilot program, and a number of other programs. It’s not as flashy as the turn of the century subway system build outs in Atlanta, DC, and San Francisco, and there’s just so much room for more because the US is absolutely starved for transit, but calling that an empty promise is just an absurd mistruth
