The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
Oh, that’s easy; we don’t! Every four years, the fabric of our society frays and tears a little more, while our politicians either exploit our divisions or attempt to repair them without making any changes to the material conditions or systemic problems that create these fractures, because fixing these underlying issues would upset the handful of billionaires that actually control our government! But there’s a new Fast & Furious movie every two or three years, so it balances out.
Not only that, but if they fix the problems that they used to get your votes, they can’t use them again next election, and we can’t have that so at most you get a pittance of “fixes” while they just blame the other side for blocking it and then the other side does it with a few of their issues. And we’ll keep voting for them too because A) who else? B) the other guy is worse, and C) this time they really will fix everything they continually run on. Any day now…
I don’t think there is a “normal” anymore? The 2028 campaigns will start on November 6.
We… don’t? Have you not been watching American news for the last… 9 years? I don’t speak with my family because me being trans is not fully accepted by them. I don’t really want to associate with anyone who is okay with increasing trans suicides via politics. I moved from North Carolina to Oregon to be in a queer friendly state, and I don’t regret it one bit. And I have an appointment to get my passport tomorrow… just in case. I don’t know if this country can be fixed. People talk about getting along with our neighbors or meeting in the middle, but I don’t know how to get along with people who wish I didn’t exist.
I’ve ended my relationship with my father, and the one with my mom/step dad is on shaky ground, though they’ve just swapped their vote for Kamala (it took way too much convincing for that to happen though).
Here’s the issue I have with these people, post the 2024 (and truthfully, even the 2020) election.
Reasons to vote for trump at this point in the game:
- They’ve seen what he’s said and the kinds of actions he’s made and his hate/violent rhetoric/attempted coup/felonies/treason with classified documents/overt Fascism/dictator comments/etc/etc/etc, just the fucking worst a US president, hell even a citizen, can do to abuse their power, position, and hurt their fellow Americans in the process; And they’re for it. They support their brand of fascism. Because for some reason they agree with his message and think they’re going to come out aces after the dust settles from WW3
- They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
In both of those cases, they are absolutely not to be trusted. I don’t think there’s too many people left in the second use case, but even so, every single one of his supporters is not to be trusted or respected ever again. They’ve shown their true side, and it’s the worst humanity has to offer.
I didn’t realize we had that many pieces of shit living here in America, but we do. So I refuse to associate with them ever again. I will not do business or have any interaction with them again, if I can help it.
They’ve isolated themselves. I will not fall victim to the paradox of intolerance. I refuse to tolerate Nazi’s living in my country. And at this point, everyone who’s voting for trump is a Nazi.
I don’t give a shit if semantically that’s not a PC statement. This is the truth. Downvoting will not change that fact. If you support trump today, you are a fascist that is most closely aligned with the Nazi ideals. I don’t want to hear the excuses, or what someone is “really” supporting trump for. It’s all noise and bullshit to hide the fact that they are deeply disgusting people all the way through who I do not want in my life, or in power making decisions that could affect me or the people I care about.
I don’t know your situation, but turning from family will only harden their resolve and make them more defensive. I went through this with my mom. She voted for Trump in 2020, after years of me telling her how bad he was. I was angry and didn’t talk to her for 2 months. During this time I heard a podcast with David McRaney, about how to talk to QAnon people. It helped me to understand how they got there, and how to help them out of it. It is a process. They operate on an emotional level, and you have to relate to them on emotional level. After that, you question how they arrived at their decisions. Like:
If I asked what your favorite movie is, could you explain why it’s your favorite movie?
Emotionally connecting with them and then thoughtfully questioning their beliefs, in a non-condescending way can be beneficial. It may take days or months, but once the seed of doubt is planted, it can start a dialogue. Remember, these are people we love ❤️, we owe it to ourselves to be compassionate in conversations.
I sincerely appreciate the thoughtfulness of your reply. It sounds like you’re a damn good person, and your mom was worth it as well.
I left out, but probably should have mentioned that even before the trump/MAGA stuff came into their lives, we had a deep divide due to a lot of trauma and issues they inflicted on me during my childhood. Both of my parents are different types of deep narcissists, with deeprooted religious beliefs that untether them from reality (e.g. they admitted they would kill me, my siblings, their grandchildren, etc. if they thought god told them to; that sort of thing). Neither of them gave me anything in life, didn’t pay for anything really (my dad’s child support was spent to keep my mom’s side able to “not work”, without much spent on me or my siblings), my mom chased a sibling around the dinner table with a steak knife trying to stab him (it wasn’t until much later that she’d get medication to help with these episodes), and just generally all the awful normal stuff that happens between divorced parents that deeply, deeply, hate each other and are willing to burn the world down if it meant the other person wouldn’t have a pot to piss in. This unfortunately included putting all of us through tons of abuse, court custody cases, CPS visits, police visits (I’ve had to have my fingerprints done I was 6 because of some serious shit that happened and they needed to isolate the prints that weren’t me or another family members to find the culprit), etc. (like, seriously etc.+1000. I could go on for literal days with all the shit that they put me and my siblings through over the years. Haven’t even scratched the surface).
The trump thing was a very large straw that broke the camel’s back. They were already on thin ice as shitty human beings that refuse to apologize for the damage they did to me and my siblings over the years, and continue to do (I have one of my brother’s living with me right now, because of them).
My relationship with my dad ended after he exploded and physically assaulted me in front of his home. I tried to reconcile and work with him through one of our siblings as a mediator and he flew off the handle again accusing me of disrespecting his authority (which was not just taking everything he tells me as “fact” and “morally correct” since I’m considered an “amoral atheist”…), at which point I cut him out of my life. I just don’t need that shit added to everything else on my plate in life. He was never there for me, my friends were my family.
Anyhow, again, not to detract from your kind and optimistic reply. Anyone else in a different situation, I would encourage to take your advice.
For me though? Hopefully the context I’ve added starts to paint the picture of why that’s a bridge too far. Even if we somehow got through/past all the trump nonsense, we still have all the above, and about 100x that which I just didn’t want to burden a reader with going through all my trauma ;)
They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
I think you underestimate both 1) how many news orgs/media spaces/social communities only report on Trump’s successes and democrat scandals and 2) how much of an echo chamber these people live in. Add on a few natural cognitive biases, such as team thinking and discarding evidence contrary to one’s worldview, and you have pretty much the majority of Trump voters at this time.
They are completely immersed in a world where democrats generally are evil and Trump is one of the good guys. Nothing has ever challenged them out of it, because at this point the challenges are just part of the narrative of good vs evil. Whether this changes your conclusions or not, I dunno (dunno whether I think it even should change your conclusion!), but I figure it’s worthwhile giving an accurate depiction of people. Not all malicious and/or super-ignorant, but rather simply cloistered.
You don’t. You just gleefully rub it in their face what a moronic LOSER they are.
As many others have said, you don’t. That may be part of the devisive-ness experienced here currently, but when one side is stating that the military should be used on dissenters, and the other side needs slaughtered, and they’re talking about deporting detractors currently in govt, it’s addition by subtraction. Should my side win, I don’t expect any kind of persecution of people I don’t agree with. Should the other side win, they are functionally demanding it.
“You won’t have to vote anymore” is an insane statement from a democratic candidate. “We’ll fix it so good, you won’t have to vote”. And people are on the fence. It’s disgusting. Choose a fucking side and vote it.
You don’t.
Exactly. We certainly didn’t after the LAST one.
If Harris wins, ideally I’ll do all the things I’ve been putting off until after the election. I’ve been meaning to update the address on my driver’s license, the registration on my car, and several other things like that.
I live in a deep red state; I’ve been paranoid about getting them done, for fear of my voter registration “happening” to get lost in the process. And then I’d finally have an excuse to never visit my hardcore right-wing parents ever again, because my mail won’t be showing up at their house anymore.
If Trump wins, I’m not going to update anything. I plan to flee. I don’t have the means to leave the country, but I’ve got friends in blue states who are happy to take me in. That’s better than nothing, I guess.
The short tl;dr answer is, we don’t. For me, it’s something I contended with around 2003-2004 when my father stood with most staunch Republicans in advocating for extrajudicial torture of POWs and eventually of civilians including Americans who were mistaken for terrorist agents.
On the other hand, the same event drove me to study moral philosophy so I could explain at length why torture was wrong; he didn’t care, which was the gaze into the abyss moment. I saw who my dad was in the dark.
Cut to 2024, and even if Harris wins (and any coup d’etat attempts are put down) we are a long, long way from the scare being over. This has been reviewed at length by CIA and we’ve heard from experts on civil wars, how they erupt and historically what must happen to prevent social unrest from turning violent to the degree that it overwhelms responders.
The universal panacea is the restoration of power to the people. So that’s not to say we can merely preserve elections in the US. Our election system is corrupt and relies on FPTP voting models (one person, one vote) which means third parties cannot be competitive. It also means the two principal parties don’t have to be very public-serving to stay in power.
This means Harris not only needs a cooperative Congress (and cooperative state populations) but also the impetus to operate against the interests of her party for the good of the public, and we all struggle to discard the One Ring. She’ll also have pressure from establishment politicians, as well as progressives who are not progressive enough to go the distance and let power be diffused to a wider body of persons and interests.
What we can expect are some shorter-term measures, maybe some social safety nets, some relief for people caught in the debt crisis or homeless crisis, even some labor reform so that most of us aren’t one crisis away from homelessness and a ruined life. But this will kick the can down the line, and allow the Republican party (whose only trick now is election subversion and procedural coup d’etat when not violent coup d’etat) to persist as it is (and has been at least since Reagan).
Election reform would force the Republican party to reconsider its far-right-wing position and actually offer a platform worth voting for. But so long as we don’t get that, they still have viable pathways to seizing power.
All this said, some people will come to their senses as the precarity lets up. Some people will realize they can afford to be less afraid, and that a public-serving society is something worth fighting for. But that is a long, and personal process for each of them, and usually they’re pretty repentant when they realize what they had become.
I’m Canadian and because of QAnon and Trump, I don’t have a relationship with my sister anymore and I see my dad once every few years out of obligation, but not a day goes by where he doesn’t say something mortifying racist or fascistic. He watches Fox News from the US every day. They aren’t allowed a Canadian channel because they don’t meet our legal standards for truthful reporting. American politics always leak into Canada. I hate it.
Unless we get a blow-out for either candidate that cannot be challenged, which does not seem likely based on the polls and battle lines, even if we have a Biden-esque victory for Harris, I’m fairly unsure of what will happen next. I personally doubt full on Civil War like in the Garland movie, or the actual civil war, but I would expect all kinds of shitty legal tricks, possible Supreme Court involvement and of course, stochastic and targeted violence, particularly towards immigrants and minorities. In other words, win or lose, I think the US may be in for a bad time. Hopefully I’m working in my assumptions here and it is somewhat more boring.
To better answer your question though, assuming things don’t completely fall apart: the two sides already don’t mix much, which is part of the problem in the first place. We’ll get more govt inaction due to gridlocked congress, probably more defense spending and some states, in the absence of federal legislating, will continue to take a larger role as they have been doing already in the recent era.
So basically more of the same, on a not-great trend line. Something has to give at some point, it’s hard to imagine how you could put the genie back in the bottle now, particularly with overall conditions in the world due to late-stage capitalism and climate change constricting each year.
You uhh, you don’t.
Those people have proven themselves to not be worthy of a relationship. Those people should be shunned for being inhumane monsters, not welcomed back into society. They will not change. They hate me and the people I love. I, and I assume many others like me, will never forgive, and never forget. And they will not stop. Even if we win the election, we will not have beaten them. This will only escalate until we beat them back and crush their ideology.
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other
We do not tolerate intolerance.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not except into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
I don’t need to talk to those who are openly racist. I’m not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren’t part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
